Krishnamurti-dialoger på Skype
Folk der er interesseret i at udforske sig selv og lytte til hvad Krishnamurti har at sige er velkomne til at deltage. Tryk på linket. Næste dialog er søndag 3. december kl. 10.00
Der er ikke noget sådant som min lære; du skal ikke forstå læren; du skal forstå dig selv. Hele formålet med læren er at få dig til at indse hvor vigtigt det er at forstå dig selv .
J.Krishnamurti
Søndag 3. december kl. 10
Emner til Nordic Retreat 2024
What is the unfolding or the flowering of the whole human being and how can it be brought about or encouraged?
How can a mind flower if it is in a great bondage to anything? When it is in prison, when it is hedged about, circumscribed, limited?
What is beyond the limitations, once those limitations have been transcended?
Text on Inquiry as Via Negativa
Part III - Chapter 1 - Small Group Dialogue, Ojai, California - 22nd March 1977
KRISHNAMURTI: Is it the expression of truth? There are two things involved. The speaker is either talking out of the silence of truth, or he is talking out of the noise of an illusion which he considers to be the truth.
K: It may be self evident to you and yet an illusion. It is such a dangerous, delicate thing.
K Isn’t there a terrible danger in this?
Q I am sure there is a danger.
K So you are now saying that one has to walk in danger.
QYes.
K Now I begin to understand what you are saying.
A path full of mines, the razor’s edge path
Søndag 26. november kl. 10
Emner til Nordic Retreat 2024
KRISHNAMURTI: Is it the expression of truth? There are two things involved. The speaker is either talking out of the silence of truth, or he is talking out of the noise of an illusion which he considers to be the truth.
K: It may be self evident to you and yet an illusion. It is such a dangerous, delicate thing.
K Isn’t there a terrible danger in this?
Q I am sure there is a danger.
K So you are now saying that one has to walk in danger.
QYes.
K Now I begin to understand what you are saying.
A path full of mines, the razor’s edge path
Text:
Part III - Chapter 1 - Small Group Dialogue, Ojai, California - 22nd March 1977
--
Med venlig hilsen/best regards
Peter
… I have understood myself from the knowledge of others – Freud, Jung all the rest of it, the modern psychologists and so on. So can I – please listen – can I put aside all that knowledge because I am looking at myself through other people’s eyes? Therefore can I put all that aside and look at myself afresh, anew?
KRISHNAMURTI IN SAANEN 1980, QUESTION AND ANSWER MEETING 1
…When you have a map of Switzerland with all the lakes and mountains, and all that, the beauty of the land, if you have a particular direction from Gstaad to Bern, you are only concerned with that route and you don’t look at the rest of the map. That is, you have a particular direction and if you have a particular direction you neglect to look at the rest of the map. But if you have no direction then you look all around. The moment you have a motive which gives you a direction, then you are only looking in a particular direction. But if you have no motive and also no direction then you look at the whole map at a glance.
Now, can you do this, the same, with one’s self – anger, jealousy, brutality, aggression, attachment – all that. That is the whole map of yourself, which requires quietness of the brain and no direction. Then you see clearly the whole of it; you hear the whole tone of that history and you have captured it immediately, the wholeness of it.
KRISHNAMURTI IN SAANEN 1981, QUESTION AND ANSWER MEETING 3
…SELF-KNOWLEDGE, KNOWING oneself, must begin knowing the world outside, knowing what is happening in the world – politically, religiously, economically, socially, racially, the class differences, the totalitarian states, the left, right and centre. All that one must observe…
KRISHNAMURTI IN SAANEN 1977, DISCUSSION 5
…Without self-knowledge, there can be no meditation; without meditation, there can be no self-knowledge…Spiritual life arises in the understanding of relationship, which is the beginning of self-knowledge.
KRISHNAMURTI IN OJAI 1949, TALK 6
… because we don’t know ourselves, we are destroying other human beings. We are destroying this marvellous earth.
KRISHNAMURTI IN OJAI 1982, QUESTION AND ANSWER MEETING 3
Citaterne er herfra
Videoen finder du i denne sammenhæng
under emnet self-knowledge
Søndag 5. november kl. 10
Om at iagttage- du ser mere med dit sind end med dit øje.
Oplægget er en Video med bevidsthedsforskeren Anil Seth samt en tekst af Krishnamurti som vi hver især ser på inden dialogen.
Do we all perceive the world the same way? - BBC Ideas
Andre videoer m. Seth:
Your brain hallucinates your conscious reality | Anil Seth - YouTube
17 min.
Anil Seth: How your brain invents your "self" | TED - YouTube
23 min.
Der er mange videoer med Anil Seth på YouTube, men de er væsentligt længere.
Citat af Krishnamurti:
(Link til hele Krishnamurti talen:How does the observer come into being? | J. Krishnamurti (jkrishnamurti.org))
"Now, what does that word 'observe' mean? There is not only the sensory perception with the eye - you see this bougainvillaea, sensory perception. Then - please follow this step by step - then as you observe that... both that colour then you have an image, you make an image, you have already an image, you have a name for it, you like it or dislike it, you have preference. So the images that you have about that flower, that... through that image you see, you don't actually see it but your mind sees it more than the eye. Right? Please do understand this very simple fact, that we look not only at nature, which is being destroyed by human beings - pollution and all the rest of it that is going on in this terrible world - we not only look at nature with the eyes that have accumulated knowledge about nature, and therefore with an image, we also look at human beings with our various forms of conclusions, opinions, judgements and values. That is, you are a Hindu, another is a Pakistan, Muslim. You are a Catholic, another is a Protestant, Communist and so on and on and on - the division. So when you look - please listen - when you observe yourself, your life, you observe it through the image, through the conclusions that you have already formed. You say, 'This is good', or 'This is bad' or this should be and that should not be. You are following all this? So you are looking, observing with the images, conclusions that you have formed, and therefore you are not actually looking at life. You understand this very simple fact?
So in order to look at our life as it is there must be freedom of observation. You must not look at it as a Hindu, as a bureaucrat, as a family man, as a - god knows what else! You must look at it with freedom. You understand? And that is the difficulty. You look at your life - the despair, the agony, the sorrow, this vast struggle - you look at it all with eyes that have said, and ears that have said, 'This must changed into something else', 'This must be transformed in order to make it more beautiful'. So actually when you are doing that you are not directly in relationship with what you see. Right? Are you following this? Not the explanation which the speaker is giving but actually observing your life, actually observing how you look at it. Whether you look at it with your image, with your conclusion, and therefore not looking at it but looking through the past images and therefore not coming directly in contact with it. Right? So, when you look at life, that is, the life of your daily existence, not the theoretical life, not the abstract life which says, 'All human beings are one, all love' - you know, all that tommyrot - but actually when you observe it you see that you are looking with your past knowledge, with all the images, the tradition, the accumulation of all human experience which prevents you from looking. That's a fact which must be realised, that to observe actually your life you must look at it afresh. That is, to look at it without any condemnation, without any ideal, without any desire to suppress it or change it - just to observe.
Are you doing this? Are you using the speaker as a mirror in which you are seeing your own life? And because you are seeing it with conclusion it prevents you from looking at it directly, being in contact with it. Right? Are you doing this? Not that you will do it when you go home, because if you don't do it now you won't do it later. If you are not doing it then don't bother to listen. Look at the sky, look at that tree, look at the beauty of the light, look at the clouds with their curve, with their delicacy. If you look at it without any image you have understood your own life.
So, that is, you are looking at yourself, at your life, as an observer and your life as something to be observed. Right? There is a division between the observer and the observed. Isn't that simple? That is, you are looking at your life. You, as an observer, something separate from your life. Right? So there is a division between the observer and the observed. Now, this division is the essence of all conflict, essence of all struggle, pain, fear, despair. That is, where there is a division between human beings - the division of nationalities, the division of religion, social division - wherever there is a division there must be conflict. This is law, this is reason, logic. There is Pakistan on one side and India on the other, battling with each other; you are a Brahmin and another is a non-Brahmin and hate, division. So that externalised division with all its conflict is the same as the inward division, as the observer and the observed. You have understood this? If you don't understand this, you can't go much further because a mind that is in conflict cannot possibly ever understand what truth is. Because a mind in conflict is a tortured mind, a twisted mind, a distorted mind and how can such a mind be free to observe the beauty of the earth or the beauty of the sky, the tree, the beauty of a child or a beautiful woman or a man; and the beauty of extreme sensitivity and all that is involved in it. So without understanding this basic principle, not as an ideal, as a fact that as long as you have a Pakistan on one side and India on the other, with all the awful politicians and all the gang on both sides, you are inevitably going to have conflict. So in the same way, as long as there is an observer and the thing observed there must be in you conflict. And when there is conflict in you, you project that conflict outwardly. Now, most of us realise this. And we do not know how to observe without the observer. You understand? How to dissolve this conflict and therefore we resort to the various escapes, gurus and ideals and all that nonsense.
Now, we are going to find out for ourselves - not from the speaker - find out whether it is possible to end this division as the observer and the observed. You are following all this? Please, this is important if we are really to move any further because we are going to go into the question of what love is, what death is, what is the beauty of truth, what is meditation and the mind that's completely and totally still. And to understand the highest, one must begin with the ending of conflict. And this conflict exists wherever there is the observer and the observed. And so the question is, the next question: what is this observer? You understand? The observer who has separated himself from the observed. Please, this is not a philosophy, an intellectual affair, a thing which you can discuss, deny, agree or disagree; this is something you have to... you see it yourself, and therefore it is yours, not the speaker's. We see that when you are angry, at the moment of anger there is no observer. At the moment of experiencing anything there is no observer. When you look at - please look - when you look at that sunset, and that sunset is something immense, when you look at it at that moment there is no observer who says, 'I am seeing the sunset'. A second later comes the observer. That is, you are angry. At the moment of anger there is no observer, no experiencer, there is only that state of anger; a second later comes the observer who says, 'I should not have been angry', or the observer says, 'I was justified in being angry' - a second later, not at the moment of anger, then is the beginning of division. You understand?
So, how does this happen? Why does... at the moment of experience there is the total absence of the observer, and how does it happen that a second later the observer comes into being? Right? You are putting the question, not I, not the speaker, put it for yourself and you'll find the answer. You understand sir? You have got to work because this is your life, and if you say, 'Well, I have learned something from the speaker', then you have learned absolutely nothing. You have just collected a few words and those few words put together becomes the idea. Ordered thought is idea, and we are not talking about ideas, we are not talking about a new philosophy. Philosophy means the love of truth in daily life - not the truth of some philosophical mind that invents.
So, how does this observer come into being? That is, sir, when you look at this flower, at the moment you observe it closely there is no observer, there is only a looking. Then you say, 'That is...' - you begin to name that flower. Right? Then you say, 'I wish I had it in my garden, or in my house'. Then you have already begun to build an image about that flower. So the image-maker is the observer. Right? Are you following all this? Watch it in yourself please. So the image and the image-maker is the observer, and the observer is the past, the 'me' as the observer is the past, the 'me' is the knowledge which I have accumulated - knowledge of pain, sorrow, suffering, agony, despair, loneliness, jealousy, the tremendous anxiety that one goes through, that is all the 'me', which is the accumulated knowledge of the observer, which is the past. Right? So when you observe, the observer looks at that flower with the eyes of the past. And you don't know how to look without the observer and therefore you bring about conflict.
So now our question is: can you look, not only at the flower, but at your life, at your agony, at your despair, your sorrow, can you look at it without naming it, without saying to yourself, 'I must go beyond it', 'I must suppress it'? - just to look at it without the observer. Do it please as we are talking now. That is, take your particular form, or particular tendency, or take - which most people are - envy. All right, let's take that. You know what envy is, don't you, very well? You are very familiar with that. Envy is comparison. The measurement of thought comparing what you are with what should be, or with what you want to become. So you know what envy is. Now just look, take it. Now, when that reaction comes into being, that is you are envious of your neighbour who has got a bigger car, better house, is an awful politician - you know, all the rest of it. And you look at it and you suddenly feel envious. That is, you have compared yourself with him, and envy is born. Now, you have that envy, you know what that feeling is. Now can you look at that feeling without saying that is right or wrong, without naming it? You understand? Without saying that it is envy. To look at it without any image, then you go beyond it. You have understood? Instead of struggling with envy, that you should or should not, that you must suppress it because so and so, you know, without going through all that struggle and nonsensical... without any meaning, observe your anger, your envy, without naming it because the naming is the movement of the past memory which justifies or condemns. But if you can look at it without naming then you will see that you go beyond it.
So the moment you know the possibility of going beyond 'what is', you are full of energy. Right? It's the man who doesn't know how to go beyond 'what is', because he doesn't know how to deal with it, therefore he is afraid, he escapes. Then seeing the impossibility of it, such a person loses energy. You understand this sir? If you have a problem, can solve it, then you have energy. A man who has a thousand problems, doesn't know what to do with them, he loses his energy. So in the same way, look at your life, what it is: ugly, petty, shallow, extraordinarily violent. These are all words to describe what is actually going on, not only the violence in sex but violence that abides with power, position, prestige. Now, look at it with eyes that don't immediately jump with images."
Mvh Rasmus
When there is total absence of yourself, beauty is.
- Krishnamurti
Beauty is not of time.
Like love, it cannot be divided as yesterday, today and tomorrow. When one divides it, there are all the problems of love – jealousy, envy, domination, possessiveness, all the problems that are involved in relationship, in what one calls love.
And with that beauty, which is not the result of fragmented time, then painting, music and all the modern gimmicks and tricks have no meaning whatsoever, because anything that is of time, that is of the period, of this century, of this modern revolt and so on, the expression of all that, denies beauty.
Beauty cannot be translated in terms of time.
- Krishnamurti
--
Med venlig hilsen/best regards
Peter
Præsentationer
Som man kan se her på siden er inspirationen eller udgangspunktet for vores samtaler som oftest en tekst eller video af Krishnamurti. Ind imellem er der dog en længere præsentation fra en af deltagerne. Nogle eksempler ser du her:
Sensitivitet betyder at være fintfølende overfor alt omkring én - overfor planterne, dyrene, træerne, himlen, vandet i floderne, fuglene på vingerne; det betyder også at man bemærker humøret i folk omkring én og i den fremmede der går forbi. Denne sensitivitet skaber en ikke-kalkulerende, uselvisk respons, hvilket er sand moral og adfærd.
Life Ahead/introduction
For sjov er her lidt at læse - hvis du har tid:
Hvad handler livet om?
Søndag 24. september kl.10
Choiceless awareness - en lutring af sjælen?
Har Choiceless awareness en katarsisk virkning?
oplæg og diskussion
You know the psychological fears dominate the physical - that is obvious - and therefore the body, the instrument, the organism loses its own intelligence. You understand? If the fears of the psyche are constantly in operation, as with most people, then there is a tremendous strain on the organism. It is frightened, it is nervous, it is always apprehensive, always guarding itself, never open. And so those psychological fears affect very deeply the physical organism. And the inner affects the outer and therefore its own native intelligence of the body is being destroyed, as you destroy the organism through the pleasure of a taste - smoking, drinking, drugs, eating a lot of meat, you know all the rest of it that goes on because you are trained, you are educated along these lines. Therefore that is always destroying the deep organic intelligence. So when there is no fear inwardly the organism operates with its own intelligence, and therefore it is quite a different operation. You understand? Nothing is dictated to it.
(Observation and fear, Public Talk 2 Saanen, Switzerland - 13 July 1976)
Meditation is not a means to an end; there is no end, no arrival; it is a movement in time and out of time. Every system, method, binds thought to time, but choiceless awareness of every thought and feeling, understanding of their motives, their mechanism, allowing them to blossom, is the beginning of meditation. When thought and feeling flourish and die, meditation is the movement beyond time. In this movement there is ecstasy; in complete emptiness there is love, and with love there is destruction and creation.
(Krishnamurti's Notebook, p. 192)
Mvh Peter
Mvh Rasmus
Her er et par korte videoer som er relevante for søndagens emne "Observing without Judgement" KH, Michael.
Questioner: I wonder what you really mean by ending thought. I talked to a friend about it and he said it is some kind of oriental nonsense. To him thought is the highest form of intelligence and action, the very salt of life, indispensable. It has created civilization, and all relationship is based on it. All of us accept this, from the greatest thinker to the humblest labourer. When we don't think we sleep, vegetate or daydream; we are vacant, dull and unproductive, whereas when we are awake we are thinking, doing, living, quarrelling: these are the only two states we know. You say, be beyond both - beyond thought and vacant inactivity. What do you mean by this?
Krishnamurti: Very simply put, thought is the response of memory, the past. The past is an infinity or a second ago. When thought acts it is this past which is acting as memory, as experience, as knowledge, as opportunity. All will is desire based on this past and directed towards pleasure or the avoidance of pain. When thought is functioning it is the past, therefore there is no new living at all; it is the past living in the present, modifying itself and the present. So there is nothing new in life that way, and when something new is to be found there must be the absence of the past, the mind must not be cluttered up with thought, fear, pleasure, and everything else. Only when the mind is uncluttered can the new come into being, and for this reason we say that thought must be still, operating only when it has to - objectively, efficiently. All continuity is thought; when there is continuity there is nothing new. Do you see how important this is? It's really a question of life itself. Either you live in the past, or you live totally differently: that is the whole point.
Questioner: I think I do see what you mean, but how in the world is one to end this thought? When I listen to the blackbird there is thought telling me instantly it is the blackbird; when I walk down the street thought tells me I am walking down the street and tells me all I recognise and see; when I play with the notion of not thinking it is again thought that plays this game. All meaning and understanding and communication are thought. Even when I am not communicating with someone else I am doing so with myself. When I am awake, I think, when I am asleep I think. The whole structure of my being is thought. Its roots lie far deeper than I know. All I think and do and all I am is thought, thought creating pleasure and pain, appetites, longings, resolutions, conclusions, hopes, fears and questions. Thought commits murder and thought forgives. So how can one go beyond it? Isn't it thought again which seeks to go beyond it?
Krishnamurti: We both said, when thought is still, something new can be. We both saw that point clearly and to understand it clearly is the ending of thought.
Questioner: But that understanding is also thought.
Krishnamurti: Is it? You assume that it is thought, but is it, actually?
Questioner: It is a mental movement with meaning, a communication to oneself.
Krishnamurti: If it is a communication to oneself it is thought. But is understanding a mental movement with meaning?
Questioner: Yes it is.
Krishnamurti: The meaning of the word and the understanding of that meaning is thought. That is necessary in life. There thought must function efficiently. It is a technological matter. But you are not asking that. You are asking how thought, which is the very movement of life as you know it, can come to an end. Can it only end when you die? That is really your question, isn't it?
Questioner: Yes.
Krishnamurti: That is the right question. Die! Die to the past, to tradition.
Questioner: But how?
Krishnamurti: The brain is the source of thought. The brain is matter and thought is matter. Can the brain - with all its reactions and its immediate responses to every challenge and demand - can that brain be very still? It is not a question of ending thought, but of whether the brain can be completely still. Can it act with full capacity when necessary and otherwise be still? This stillness is not physical death. See what happens when the brain is completely still. See what happens.
Questioner: In that space there was a blackbird, the green tree, the blue sky, the man hammering next door, the sound of the wind in the trees and my own heartbeat, the total quietness of the body. That is all.
Krishnamurti: If there was recognition of the blackbird singing, then the brain was active, was interpreting. It was not still. This really demands tremendous alertness and discipline, the watching that brings its own discipline, not imposed or brought about by your unconscious desire to achieve a result or a pleasurable new experience. Therefore during the day thought must operate effectively, sanely, and also watch itself.
Questioner: That is easy, but what about going beyond it?
Krishnamurti: Who is asking this question? Is it the desire to experience something new or is it the enquiry? If it is the enquiry, then you must enquire and investigate the whole business of thinking and be completely familiar with it, know all its tricks and subtleties. If you have done this you will know that the question of going beyond thought is an empty one. Going beyond thought is knowing what thought is.
Dette er en tekst fra sidst, og jeg nævnte der var noget jeg ikke syntes vi kom ind på - så måske vi også kunne tale om hvad vi forstår ved space?
Hilsen Henrik
The booklet Meditations 1969:
In the space which thought creates around itself there is no love. This space divides
man from man, and in it is all the becoming, the battle of life, the agony and fear.
Meditation is the ending of this space, the ending of the me. Then relationship has
quite a different meaning, for in that space which is not made by thought, the other
does not exist, for you do not exist. Meditation then is not the pursuit of some
vision, however sanctified by tradition. Rather it is the endless space where thought
cannot enter. To us, the little space made by thought around itself, which is the me,
is extremely important, for this is all the mind knows, identifying itself with
everything that is in that space. And the fear of not being is born in that space. But
in meditation, when this is understood, the mind can enter into a dimension of
space where action is inaction. We do not know what love is, for in the space made
by thought around itself as the me, love is the conflict of the me and the not-me.
This conflict, this torture, is not love. Thought is the very denial of love, and it
cannot enter into that space where the me is not. In that space is the benediction
which man seeks and cannot find. He seeks it within the frontiers of thought, and
thought destroys the ecstasy of this benediction.
A morning dialogue about ’Going beyond thought’
Bing AI.
What does J. Krishnamurti mean by the words ‘going beyond thought?’:
J. Krishnamurti talked about going beyond thought as a way of exploring the nature
of reality and oneself without the limitations of the past, time and conditioning. He
proposed that thought is based on memory, which is always incomplete and
distorted, and that it cannot capture the essence of life, which is constantly
changing and unknown. He also suggested that there is an action that is not
touched by thought, which is based on love, intelligence and compassion.
J.Krishnamurti.org.
From Interview 2 by Gary Null at Brockwood Park, 17 October 1980:
Krishnamurti: There is something beyond all thought, beyond all measure, which is
timeless. We can call it, for the moment, truth. There is that truth that is sacred.
And man has sought this thing but has been trapped by other unnecessary things
on his journey to find that. To come to that, one must have an extraordinarily quiet
mind, a mind that is free of all problems, a mind that has established right
relationship with another, that in itself has complete, absolute order. We are using
the word ‘absolute’ in its real sense: order, which means no conflict, no
contradiction in oneself, and from that, no fear, the understanding of pleasure and
the ending of sorrow. When there is the ending of sorrow, the ending of fear and
the understanding of pleasure, out of that understanding comes love and
compassion with its intelligence. When that is well-established – not verbally or
intellectually but actually – then meditation is that quality of mind that is wholly
silent. Then, in that silence, there is that which is eternal, which is
sacred, beyond all images, all churches and all organisations.
Source unknown (https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/content/2ndconversation/2nd%20conversation):
Krishnamurti:
If [enlightenment] is an escape from everyday living, everyday living being the
extraordinary movement of relationship, then this so-called realization, this socalled enlightenment, or whatever name you like to give it, is illusion and hypocrisy.
Anything that denies love and the understanding of life and action is bound to
create a great deal of mischief. It distorts the mind, and life is made a horrible
affair. So if we take that to be axiomatic then perhaps we may proceed to find out if
enlightenment - whatever that may mean - can be found in the very act of living.
After all, living is more important than any idea, ideal goal or principle. It is
because we don't know what living is that we invent these visionary, unrealistic
concepts which offer escape. The real question is, can one find enlightenment in
living, in the everyday activities of life, or is it only for the few who are endowed
with some extraordinary capacity to discover this beatitude? Enlightenment means
to be a light unto oneself, but a light which is not self-projected or imagined, which
is not some personal idiosyncrasy. After all, this has always been the teaching of
true religion, though not of organized belief and fear.
Questioner: I still don't know what you mean by enlightenment?
Krishnamurti: A state of negation. Negation is the most positive action, not positive
assertion. This is a very important thing to understand. Most of us so easily accept
positive dogma, a positive creed, because we want to be secure, to belong, to be
attached, to depend. The positive attitude divides and brings about duality. The
conflict then begins between this attitude and others. But the negation of all values,
of all morality, of all beliefs, having no frontiers, cannot be in opposition to
anything. A positive statement in its very definition separates, and separation is
resistance. To this we are accustomed, this is our conditioning. To deny all this is
not immoral; on the contrary to deny all division and resistance is the highest
morality. To negate everything that man has invented, to negate all his values,
ethics and gods, is to be in a state of mind in which there is no duality, therefore no
resistance or conflict between opposites. In this state there are no opposites, and
this state is not the opposite of something else.
…
Krishnamurti: To deny [the positive attitude] is to deny oneself, and oneself is the
conditioned entity who continually pursues a conditioned good. To most of us
negation appears as a vacuum because we know activity only in the prison of our
conditioning, fear and misery. From that we look at negation and imagine it to be
some terrible state of oblivion or emptiness. To the man who has negated all the
assertions of society, religion, culture and morality, the man who is still in the
prison of social conformity is a man of sorrow. Negation is the state of
enlightenment which functions in all the activities of a man who is free of the past.
It is the past, with its tradition and its authority, that has to be negated. Negation is
freedom, and it is the free man who lives, loves, and knows what it means to die.
Questioner: That much is clear; but you say nothing about any intimation of
the transcendental, the divine, or whatever you like to call it.
Krishnamurti: The intimation of that can be found only in freedom, and any
statement about it is the denial of freedom; any statement about it becomes a
verbal communication without meaning. It is there, but it cannot be found or
invited, least of all imprisoned in any system, or ambushed by any clever tricks of
the mind. It is not in the churches or the temples or the mosques. There is no path
to it, no guru, no system that can reveal its beauty; its ecstasy comes only when
there is love. This is enlightenment.
The booklet Meditations 1969:
In the space which thought creates around itself there is no love. This space divides
man from man, and in it is all the becoming, the battle of life, the agony and fear.
Meditation is the ending of this space, the ending of the me. Then relationship has
quite a different meaning, for in that space which is not made by thought, the other
does not exist, for you do not exist. Meditation then is not the pursuit of some
vision, however sanctified by tradition. Rather it is the endless space where thought
cannot enter. To us, the little space made by thought around itself, which is the me,
is extremely important, for this is all the mind knows, identifying itself with
everything that is in that space. And the fear of not being is born in that space. But
in meditation, when this is understood, the mind can enter into a dimension of
space where action is inaction. We do not know what love is, for in the space made
by thought around itself as the me, love is the conflict of the me and the not-me.
This conflict, this torture, is not love. Thought is the very denial of love, and it
cannot enter into that space where the me is not. In that space is the benediction
which man seeks and cannot find. He seeks it within the frontiers of thought, and
thought destroys the ecstasy of this benediction
Mvh Rasmus
Disorder is not outside of me; disorder is inside of me. That is a fact. Because the mind is disorderly, all its activities must be disorderly. And the activities of disorder are proliferating or moving in the world. Can this mind observe itself without introducing the opposite factor of an orderly mind?
- Krishnamurti, from Dialogue 5 with Allan W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 20 February 1974
Mvh Peter
”When I began to think for myself”
Krishnamurti gjorde det helt klart at han ikke ønskede fortolkere, at han ikke autoriserede nogen til at udlægge det han havde at sige. Samtidig opfordrede han til at man satte spørgsmålstegn ved alt, også det han sagde, at man diskuterede det og selv opdagede hvad der var sandt og ikke sandt i alle væsentlige spørgsmål.
WE ARE INCREASINGLY TOLD by others what to think and what to do about the issues in our lives and the world around us. Krishnamurti counters this movement, saying that what is essential is to find out for ourselves. He rejects any authority of his own, and of gurus, religions, psychologists, philosophers and politicians, saying there is no teacher and no taught. Instead, he suggests that we are as two friends, perhaps sitting in a park or walking along a quiet lane, talking over the deep problems of life amicably, frankly and easily.
Fra Introduction to Krishnamurti
Hvad vil det sige at tænke selv?
Hvad vil det sige at tænke sig om?
Hvad vil det sige at tænke klart?
Kan vi tænke sammen?
Er der en tænkning uden ord?
Måske vi også kommer ind på spørgsmålet om autoritet. Her er i hvert fald nogle citater.
Hilsen Henrik
Authority
YOU CANNOT DEPEND UPON ANYBODY
You cannot depend upon anybody. There is no guide, no teacher, no authority. There is only you – your relationship with others and with the world.
Krishnamurti, Freedom From the Known
NOBODY CAN TEACH YOU ABOUT YOURSELF
Nobody can teach you about yourself except yourself, so you have to be the guru and the disciple yourself, and learn from yourself. What you learn from another is not true.
Krishnamurti at Madras 1971, Talk 3
TO BE FREE OF ALL AUTHORITY
To be free of all authority, your own and that of another, is to die to everything of yesterday, so that your mind is fresh, young, innocent, full of vigour and passion.
Krishnamurti, Freedom From the Known
LEADERS AND FOLLOWERS
Leaders destroy the followers and followers destroy the leaders.
Krishnamurti, Freedom From the Known
DISORDER CREATES AUTHORITY
When one is in disorder and confusion, society becomes utterly chaotic; then that very disorder creates authority.
Krishnamurti, The Whole Movement of Life is Learning
Se kilde: Quotes by Krishnamurti • Krishnamurti Foundation Trust (kfoundation.org)
KRISHNAMURTI:
…
What is thinking? When we say "I think", what do we mean by that? When are we conscious of this process of thinking? Surely, we are aware of it when there is a problem, when we are challenged, when we are asked a question, when there is friction. We are aware of it as a self-conscious process.
…
Surely, thinking is a reaction. If I ask you a question, to that you respond, - you respond according to your memory, to your prejudices, to your upbringing, to the climate, to the whole background of your conditioning; and according to that you reply, according to that you think. If you are a Christian, a communist, a Hindu, or what you will, that background responds; and it is this conditioning that obviously creates the problem. The centre of this background is the me in the process of action.
…
London, 7 April 1952
…
The beginning of thought is the brain registering, danger or not danger, the pleasure and the fear. Right? The original man or the ape from which we have come, or some source from which we have come, that brain which is very, very old, ancient beyond words, it must have registered danger, death, fear, security. Right? So the beginning of thought is the process of registration, which is memory. Right? We are not saying anything extraordinary, these are facts. And what has been registered is knowledge, knowledge of danger, knowledge of pleasure, knowledge of the fear between the two. And this accumulating process of knowledge, which is constant registration, day after day, centuries upon centuries registration, which is the accumulation of knowledge, that knowledge is in the brain, and that knowledge, which is memory, and from that memory thought is born. Right?
Questioner: Rubbish.
Krishnamurti: One moment. Sir, if you are disagreeing with me it is all right. Don't agree or disagree. We are not arguing - show off who is clever, who is less clever. But we are just enquiring, not asserting anything.
So memory, knowledge, is the outcome of the past. Right? So the past is limited, knowledge is limited. You may have more, more, more but it is always limited. And there have been people who say man can ascend only through knowledge, rise higher and higher and higher. The philosophers, the speculative intellectual romanticists, say that knowledge is the essence of growth. Which is, the past will always remain. The past, by accumulation, is evolution. As an acorn, a little thing grows into a marvellous, huge oak tree, so that same attitude, or that same example is transferred to this accumulative knowledge, growing, growing, growing. We have never asked whether knowledge is limited and therefore can knowledge end and something begin? You understand my question?
So thought born of memory, knowledge, is always everlastingly limited. And our activities therefore are always limited - based on thought. Right? It is not my argument. It is not what I posit and start from there. But if you go into this yourself, not according to some professor, not according to some theoretician, psychologist, then if you do, you become second-hand human beings, which we are. But whereas if you look into yourself and go at it, surgically, not emotionally, then you will find out that thought because of its very limitation has created all the problems. Right? Is this clear, between us or is this clear to yourself, not between you and me? All the scriptures, all the poems, all the literature, all the rituals, the gods, the images, everything is the product of thought. Horrible idea, isn't it, when you realise it.
So when there is identification with something, thought is the process of identification, therefore that identification limits, limits the energy, and that energy is used as an individual. Therefore the individual becomes more and more limited, and his action then will be limited, obviously. Which is what is happening. England on one side, Europe on the other, America, Russia - racially, politically, religiously, in every way - all that is based on thought. And is there an action - please, we are enquiring - is there an action which is not based on thought? Therefore an action which is not limited, confined, which means is there an action which is not based on knowledge, on memory, on remembrance? Don't say, 'That is impossible', or 'It is possible' - we don't know, we are enquiring, we are asking. Because in limited action there is regret, mischief, pain, anxiety, whether you have done the right thing or the wrong thing - all that follows from limited activity, which is called the individual. And the individual, limited, he is seeking the infinite. Theoretically they can assert there is the infinite, but to find out, to come upon that infinite, that thing which is not measurable, one must go into the very, very depths of thought. And is there a possibility of action without registration? Got it?
You understand? You tell me something, you use cruel words and you call me a name. I am hurt. And most human beings in the world are hurt, not only physiologically but much more psychologically. You are hurt, aren't you? And from that hurt we do all kinds of things - resist, withdrawal, fear, violence, bitterness and so on, so on, so on. This hurt is, if you examine it very closely, is the movement of thought in the formation of the image. Right? Thought has created an image about oneself, that you are beautiful, that you are intellectually marvellous, that you are etc. etc. And when you use an ugly word, angrily point it out, that image gets hurt; which is, thought - please follow all this - that thought, which has created an image about itself, that image gets hurt. Which is: can one live right throughout life without a single hurt? Then only there is freedom, then there is only sanity.
…
Public Talk 3 Saanen, Switzerland - 13 July 1978
Hej - her er, som aftalt, podcasten med Rupert Spira.
KH, Michael.
In this episode, Rupert talks with Henry Fischer and Jaap Sluijter from the Krishnamurti Educational Center in California. Their discussion includes Rupert's meeting Krishnamurti, the relationship between thoughts and awareness, and the John Smith/King Lear metaphor for understanding the illusory separate self.
You can find out more about the Krishnamurti Foundation of America via either of the links below. Website: kfa.org Podcast: theimmeasurable.org
Listen on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/ch/podcast/rupert-spira-podcast/id1494564673?i=1000518816903
Kære alle,
Her vedhæftet et Q&A fra Public Talk 6 Saanen 1968.
Resten af talen er om noget andet, men hele talen kan læses her:
Public Talk 6 Saanen, Switzerland - 18 July 1968 | J. Krishnamurti (jkrishnamurti.org)
Mvh Rasmus
Public Talk 6 Saanen, Switzerland - 18 July 1968
…
Questioner: (Inaudible)
Krishnamurti: You are asking, not only what is awareness, but also when there is not that awareness all the old responses come into being. Right? How is one to prevent, or to inhibit, or to put aside, the old responses? Right? To put it in different words - perhaps that may help - there is a state of inattention and attention - right? When you are completely giving your mind, your heart, your nerves, everything you have to attend, the old habits, the mechanical responses don't enter into it, thought doesn't come into it at all. But we can't maintain that all the time so we are mostly in a state of inattention, a state in which there is not an alert, choiceless awareness. So what takes place? There is inattention and rare attention, and we are trying to bridge the one to the other. Right? We say how can my inattention become attentive? Or can I be so totally, completely attentive all the time? Right? Is that the question? Right. Inattention can never become attention - right? How can it? How can you make hate into love? You can't. But if you investigate the ways of inattention, watch it, how inattention grows, be aware of it and not try to make inattention into attention - be inattentive - right? Take it the other way - be inattentive, and know that you are inattentive. Right? Watch it, what is happening, look at it very carefully! Do listen, do listen. I said - the speaker said, not me - be aware that you are inattentive. Right? Don't try to make inattention - force it to become attention. Right? You can't do it. But if you say ' I'll be aware that I am inattentive' - you understand? - be aware that you are inattentive, then you have changed it. You understand what I am talking about? Q: (Inaudible) K: Ah! No, no. Do please look at it, look at it, don't come to any conclusion, first look. There are two states. One is inattention - right? And the other, in rare moments, you know when you are completely attentive, when thought doesn't come into it at all, then you will discover something totally new. Right? In that complete attention there is a different dimension altogether. You know that, you have felt it, you have remembered it, it has become a memory, and you say to yourself 'By Jove, I wish I could capture that again, keep hold of it, don't let it go.' When you say 'I want to hold it, I mustn't let it go', that is the state of inattention. Right? So, be aware of inattention - not how to be attentive. Right? And don't do anything about inattention - all right I am inattentive, but I am very careful, I'm watching it, I'm not trying to give it a shape, I'm not trying to change it, I'm just watching it. The very watching is attention.
Her er hele talen :
Public Talk 6 Saanen, Switzerland - 18 July 1968 | J. Krishnamurti (jkrishnamurti.org)
Ifølge Krishnamurti og David Bohm, skete der på et tidspunkt en afgørende forandring i den menneskelige psyke. Vi mennesker tog den forkerte vej, den forkerte vending (the wrong turn). Det skete, da vi begyndte at leve i en verden af tilblivelse (becoming). Derefter kom ideen om et selv (center, ego), som forsøger at blive noget andet, end det er. Uden selvet og selvets forestillinger er der ingen tilblivelse.
The wrong turn, den forkerte venting, diskuteres mellem Krishnamurti og Bohm in The Ending of Time ,first dialogue, sidste 25 minutter:
Om Ks forståelse af den psykologisk bevægelse tilblivelse, se
Hej,
her er et par citater til at komme igang næste søndag.
KH, Michael.
“If there is no continuity what is there? There is nothing. One is afraid to be nothing. Nothing means not a thing - nothing put together by thought, nothing put together by memory, remembrances, nothing that you can put into words and then measure. There is most certainly, definitely, an area where the past doesn't cast a shadow, where time, the past or the future or the present, has no meaning. We have always tried to measure with words something that we don't know. What we do not know we try to understand and give it words and make it into a continuous noise. And so we clog our brain which is already clogged with past events, experiences, knowledge. We think knowledge is psychologically of great importance, but it is not. You can't ascend through knowledge; there must be an end to knowledge for the new to be. New is a word for something which has never been before. And that area cannot be understood or grasped by words or symbols: it is there beyond all remembrances.”
The Last Journal
Thought is the result of the past acting in the present; the past is constantly sweeping over the present. The present, the new, is ever being absorbed by the past, by the known. To live in the eternal present there must be death to the past, to memory; in this death there is timeless renewal.
Ojai 1945, Talk 10
‘But what part does .. the timeless .. play in life?’
If life is thought, then none at all. We want to gain the timeless as a source of peace and happiness, as a shield against all trouble, or as a means of uniting people. It cannot be used for any purpose. Purpose implies a means to an end, and so we are back again with the process of thought. Mind cannot formulate the timeless, shape it to its own end; it cannot be used. Life has meaning only when the timeless is; otherwise life is sorrow, conflict and pain. Thought cannot solve any human problem, for thought itself is the problem. The ending of knowledge is the beginning of wisdom. Wisdom is not of time; it is not the continuation of experience, knowledge. Life in time is confusion and misery; but when that which is is timeless, there is bliss.
From Commentaries on Living 1
Fandt lige et citat mere - Henrik
From Public Talk 9, Saanen, 28 July 1966
A man who is living fully and clearly is not concerned whether it will continue tomorrow. There is no concern; he is living and therefore he is not looking to a future continuity. That is very important to understand: any form of continuity, except as knowledge and skill, is totally destructive to the new. What continues is habit, memory, the repetition of a pattern of pleasure, pain and desire. The repetition of any habit or pattern cannot bring about a state of mind that is totally new, young, decisive, alive, which is not burdened by the past.
Relationer er essentiel for en sund og stærk udvikling som menneske. Vi har brug for at spejle os i hinanden for at lære os selv bedre at kende. Hvad sker der i bevidstheden, når vi reagerer i kommunikationen med andre ? Hvordan opstår disse reaktioner ? Er det et problem for os ? Hvis det er et problem, kan man være i en relation med andre uden at falde ind i gamle reaktionsmønstre ?
Med venlig hilsen
Michael M. Sorribes
Noget om egoet, selvet, jeget og miget.
The source or origin of disorder is the self-centred, egotistic attitude towards the world - me first and you second, our colossal selfishness.
Public Talk 1 in New York, 20 April 1974
Passion means the complete abandonment of the ‘me’, of the self, the ego.
from Dialogue 9 with Allan W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 22 February 1974
To find out whether the brain can operate completely, wholly, all the senses must operate at the same moment, at the same level, with the same intensity. Then you will find with the total movement of all the senses, there is no centre. It is only when partial sensory responses take place that there is a centre. That is the beginning of the ego, the ‘me’, the self
Public Talk 2 in New Delhi, 1 November 1981
Hej Henrik - et meget relevant quote for søndag's dialog (hilsen Michael Henriques)
There is learning of the movement of the self only when there is a conflict. When you are happy, you are not watching anything; you are just happy. It is only in unhappiness that you become aware of yourself. Pain, distress, guilt, agony, tears, ambition, fear, all that, are an indication of self-consciousness. If you discover that, you have solved a great deal. Self-consciousness is the source of all conflict. To end conflict, can the mind be free from this mechanism of self-centred images? Me first and my ambition, my knowledge, my way of thinking, my furniture, my house, the me that is afraid of my loneliness, the me that says, ‘I am not loved, I must be loved,’ ‘I must fulfil’ – all that is self-consciousness, and all that breeds fear and conflict. So realising that, the mind doesn’t enter into that field at all.
From Discussion with Young People, Malibu, 14 April 1970
We talked about continuing the dialogue about 'choiceless awareness'. Here are some quotes to use as a starting point.
Look at the content of your consciousness without direction, without choice. Be aware of it without any exertion of discernment. Be choicelessly aware of this extraordinary map. Then that choiceless awareness gives you tremendous energy to go beyond it.
From Dialogue 14 with Allan W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 26 February 1974
When the mind perceives its content, becomes choicelessly aware of the content of consciousness and ends it totally, that is, transforms itself completely, dies to everything that it has cultivated or held on to, then there is an incarnation now and a new change now.
Public Talk 3 in New York, 27 April 1974
To understand sorrow, there must be the understanding of time and thought, and becoming choicelessly aware of all the escapes, the self-restrained self-pity, all the verbalisations, so that the mind, in understanding all this, becomes completely quiet in front of something it has to understand. There is no division between the observer and the thing observed. It is not you as the observer looking at sorrow or feeling sorrow; there is only the state of sorrow, not you in sorrow.
From Public Talk 8, Saanen, 28 July 1964
Rasmus
Søndag 21. maj kl.10
Vi ser hver for sig nedenstående foredrag for så at tale om hvad vi finder interessant
What does it mean to live in truth and actuality?
Nordic Retreat At the Krishnamurti Centre, Brockwood Park England
From Thursday 4th May to Monday 8th May 2023
Dialogerne vil være på engelsk, men mange deltagere vil være fra et af de nordiske lande.
Booking:
The Krishnamurti Centre • Study the Teachings of J. Krishnamurti
the folder for our programme.
Everything that thought has put together is reality, the actual. The temple is the actual – you go there – the church is the actual, the mosque, and so on – all those are put together by thought. But nature, the tree, the mountains, rivers, are not put together by thought. But the chair, made out of the wood, is put together by thought. And all the illusions, the superstitions are actual, therefore put together by thought. So everything that thought has put together – tradition, the rituals, the technological knowledge, the whole apparatus of the movement of thought, which has created this world, this confusion, is a reality. And reality has nothing whatsoever to do with truth. You understand, sirs, this is really a very important, rather serious question, because we all talk about seeking truth, experiments in truth, searching for truth.
What is the relationship between reality and truth? Reality, which is the movement of thought, can it invite truth or can it perceive truth? Obviously thought is fragmentary, thought is limited, thought is a material process in time. So thought cannot possibly invite truth. It is only a mind that is holistic – we explained what we mean by the word ‘holistic’, a mind that is sane, which means rational, objective, non-personal, that can see what exactly is, and a healthy body, naturally, and a mind that is holy – that is holistic – it’s is only a holistic mind that can see what truth is. Not, thought can see what truth is.
Both extracts from J. Krishnamurti - Fourth Public Talk in Bombay - 16 January 197
Extract on Dialogue
To communicate with one another, even if we know each other very well, is extremely difficult. I may use words that may have to you a significance different from mine. Understanding comes when we, you and I, meet on the same level at the same time. That happens only when there is real affection between people, between husband and wife, between friends. That is real communion. Instantaneous understanding comes when we meet on the same level at the same time. It is very difficult to commune with one another easily, effectively and with definitive action. I am using words which are simple, which are not technical, because I do not think that any technical type of expression is going to help us solve our difficult problems; so I am not going to use any technical terms, either of psychology or of science. I have not read any books on psychology or any religious books, fortunately. I would like to convey, by the very simple words which we use in our daily life, a deeper significance; but that is very difficult if you do not know how to listen. There is an art of listening. To be able really to listen, one should abandon or put aside all prejudices, preformulations and daily activities. When you are in a receptive state of mind, things can be easily understood; you are listening when your real attention is given to something. But unfortunately most of us listen through a screen of resistance. We are screened with prejudices, whether religious or spiritual, psychological or scientific; or with our daily worries, desires and fears. And with these for a screen, we listen. Therefore we listen really to our own noise, to our own sound, not to what is being said. It is extremely difficult to put aside our training, our prejudices, our inclination, our resistance, and, reaching beyond the verbal expression, to listen so that we understand instantaneously. That is going to be one of our difficulties. If anything is said which is opposed to your way of thinking and belief just listen; do not resist. You may be right, and I may be wrong; but by listening and considering together we are going to find out what is the truth. Truth cannot be given to you by somebody. You have to discover it; and to discover, there must be a state of mind in which there is direct perception. There is no direct perception when there is a resistance, a safeguard, a protection. Understanding comes through being aware of what is. To know exactly what is, the real, the actual, without interpreting it, without condemning or justifying it, is the beginning of wisdom. It is only when we begin to interpret, to translate according to our conditioning, according to our prejudice, that we miss the truth. After all, it is like research. To know what something is, what it is exactly, requires research – you cannot translate it according to your moods. Similarly, if we can look, observe, listen, be aware of what is, exactly, then the problem is solved. And that is what we are going to do in these discourses. I am going to point out to you what is, and not translate it according to my fancy; nor should you translate it or interpret it according to your background or training.
From The First and Last Freedom, Chapter 1
On listening with ease
Have you ever sat very silently, not with your attention fixed on anything, not making an effort to concentrate, but with the mind very quiet, really still? Then you hear everything, don’t you? You hear the far off noises as well as those that are nearer and those that are very close by, the immediate sounds—which means really that you are listening to everything. Your mind is not confined to one narrow little channel. If you can listen in this way, listen with ease, without strain, you will find an extraordinary change taking place within you, a change which comes without your volition, without your asking; and in that change there is great beauty and depth of insight.
From The Book of Life
On communication and communion
There is, I think, a great deal of difference between communication and communion. In communication there is a sharing of ideas through words, pleasant or unpleasant, through symbols, through gestures; and ideas can be translated ideologically, or interpreted according to one's own peculiarities, idiosyncrasies and background. But in communion I think there is something quite different taking place. In communion there is no sharing or interpretation of ideas. You may or may not be communicating through words, but you are directly in relationship with that which you are observing; and you are communing with your own mind, with your own heart. One may commune with a tree, for example, or with a mountain, or a river. I do not know if you have ever sat beneath a tree and really tried to commune with it. It is not sentimentality, it is not emotionalism: you are directly in contact with the tree. There is an extraordinary intimacy of relationship. In such communion there must be silence, there must be a deep sense of quietness; your nerves, your body are at rest; the heart itself almost comes to a stop. There is no interpretation, there is no communication, no sharing. The tree is not you, nor are you identified with the tree: there is only this sense of intimacy in a great depth of silence. I do not know if you have ever tried it. Try it sometime - when your mind is not chattering, not wandering all over the place, when you are not soliloquizing, when you are not remembering the things that have been done or that must be done. Forgetting all that, just try communing with a mountain, with a stream, with a person, with a tree, with the very movement of life. That demands an astonishing sense of stillness, and a peculiar attention - not concentration, but an attention which comes with ease, with pleasure.
From 3rd Public Talk in Saanen, 1964
Daily Schedule
Thursday 4 May 2023
Afternoon Arrival
6.30PM Supper
8.00PM Introduction
Meeting Friday 5 May 2023
8.00AM Breakfast
9.30AM Audio: BRGS75CB1 - Brockwood Park and Gstaad 1975 - Dialogue 1 with David Bohm - What is truth and what is reality? (70 minutes)
11.30AM Dialogue 1
1.00PM Lunch
5.00PM Video extract: Truth cannot be experienced (7 minutes)) Dialogue 2
6.30PM Supper
Saturday 6 May 2023
8.00AM Breakfast
9.30AM Video: BR83CB2 - Brockwood Park 1983 - Dialogue 2 with David Bohm - Is there evolution of consciousness? (66 minutes)
11.30AM Dialogue 3
1.00PM Lunch
5.00PM Meeting with Mark Edwards
6.30PM Supper
Sunday 7 May 2023
8.00AM Breakfast
9.30AM Video: BR76CTM7 - Brockwood Park 1976 - Small Group Dialogue 7 - Life is sacred? (57 minutes)
11.30AM Dialogue 4
1.00PM Lunch
5.00PM Video: OJBR80CB15 - Brockwood Park 1980 - Dialogue 15 with David Bohm - Can human problems be solved? (73 minutes)
6.30PM Supper
Monday 8 May 2023
8.00AM Breakfast
Departure
J Krishnamurti Extract from Talk 6, Poona, India 3 October 1948
Has truth an abiding place? Has truth a fixed point? Has truth an abode, or is truth a dynamic, living thing, and therefore without a resting place? Truth is in constant movement; but if you say it is a fixed point, then you will have to find a guru who will lead you to it, and the guru becomes necessary as a pointer. That means that both you and the guru must know that truth is there, in a fixed place, like the station. Then you can ask the way, then you can approach the fixed point; and in order to achieve that, you need a guru who will direct and lead you to that fixed thing. But is truth a fixed thing? And if it is fixed, is it true? Also, if you want truth and you go to a guru, you must know what truth is, must you not? When you go to a guru you do not say, `I want to discover reality', on the contrary, you say, `Help me to realize truth'. Therefore, you already have an idea of what it is, you already know its content, its beauty, its loveliness, its fragrance. Do you know what it is? How can a confused man know clarity? He can only know confusion, or think of clarity as the opposite of what is. Is truth the opposite of what is, the opposite of confusion? If you think about truth, surely it is the product of thought, and therefore it is not true; and if the guru can tell you what it is, then he is still within the field of thought, therefore what he tells you is not true. So, when you go to the guru, obviously you are going for gratification, are you not? - even though you may not like that word. You have tried several things, you have tried position, women, money, and they do not satisfy you, they do not give an assured pleasure, a guaranteed permanency; so you say, `I will find God'. That is, you think reality will give you the ultimate peace, the ultimate satisfaction, the ultimate security. You would like truth to be all this; but it may be the most dangerous, devastating thing, it may destroy all your previous values. You are really seeking security, gratification, but you do not call it that - you cover it up by calling it God. Having tried many obvious forms of gratification and grown old, disillusioned, cynical, frustrated, you hope to find fulfilment or satisfaction in God. So, you go to the guru who will give you this satisfaction, and the more he assures you of that satisfaction, the more you worship him. In other words, when you go to the guru, you are not seeking the truth, you are seeking security at a different level, permanency at a different point. But is truth permanency? You do not know, do you? But you dare not say that, because to acknowledge, not merely verbally but actually, that one does not know, is a very devastating experience. But surely, you must be devastated before you can find truth; you must be in that state of uncertainty, complete frustration, without escape; you must be confronted with the void, the emptiness, without an avenue through which you can run away. Then only you will find what is truth. But to speculate, to think about truth, is to deny truth. Your speculations, your thoughts about truth, have no validity: What you think is the product of thought, and thought is memory; and memory is mere identification of oneself with a desired result. So, for the man who is seeking truth, a guru is entirely unnecessary. Truth is not in the distance; truth is near, in what you are thinking and feeling, in your relationship with your family, with your neighbour, with your property and with ideas. To discover truth in some abstract realm is mere ideation, and most of us seek truth this way as a means of escape from life. Life is too much for us, too taxing, too painful, so we want truth away from life Therefore we seek a guru who will help us to escape; and the more he helps us to escape, the more we are attached to that guru. 8 The questioner asks me, `Are you not yourself a guru?' You can make me one, but I am not a guru. I do not want to be one for the simple reason that there is no path to truth. You cannot discover the path, because there is no path, Truth is a thing that is living, and to a living thing there is no path - it is only, to dead things that there can be a path. Truth being pathless, to discover it you must be adventurous, ready for danger; and do you think a guru will help you to be adventurous, to live in danger? To seek a guru obviously indicates that you are not adventurous, that you are merely seeking a path to reality as a means of security. So, you can make me into a guru if you wish, but it will be your misery, because there is no guru to truth, there is no leader to reality. That reality is an eternal being in the present, not in the future; it is in the immediate now, not in the ultimate tomorrow. To understand that now, that eternity, the mind must be free from time, thought must cease; yet everything that you are doing now is cultivating that thought, thereby conditioning the mind so that there is never a freshness, a newness, there is never a moment that is still, quiet, as long as the thought process exists, truth cannot be - which does not mean that you must be in a state of complete forgetfulness. You cannot enforce stillness, you cannot make the mind still, you cannot force thought to stop. You must understand the process of thought and go beyond all thought; only then will truth liberate thought from its own process. So, truth is not for those who are respectable, nor for those who desire self-extension, selffulfilment. Truth is not for those who are seeking security, permanency; for the permanency they seek is merely the opposite of impermanence. Being caught in the net of time, they seek that which is permanent; but the permanent they seek is not the real, because what they seek is the product of their thought. Therefore, a man who would discover reality must cease to seek - which does not mean that he must be contented with what is. On the contrary, a man who is intent upon the discovery of truth must be inwardly a complete revolutionary. He cannot belong to any class, to any nation, to any group or ideology, to any organized religion; for truth is not in the temple or the church, truth is not to be found in the things made by the hand or by the mind. Truth comes into being only when the things of the mind and of the hand are put aside, and that putting aside of the things of the mind and of the hand is not a matter of time. Truth comes to him who is free of time, who is not using time as a means of self-extension. Time means memory of yesterday, memory of your family, of your race, of your particular character, of the accumulation of your experience which makes up the `me' and the `mine'. As long as the ego exists, the `me' and the `mine', at whatever level it may be, high or low, the Atman or not Atman, it is still within the field of thought. Where thought is, there is the opposite, because thought creates the opposite; and as long as the opposite exists, there cannot be truth. To understand what is, there must be no condemning, no justifying, no blaming; and since our whole structure of being is built upon denial and acceptance, one must become aware of that whole background, Just be aware as I am speaking; for choiceless awareness reveals the truth, and it is the truth that liberates, not your gurus or your systems, not all the pujas and rituals and practices. Through time, through discipline, through denial and acceptance, you cannot find truth, Truth comes into being when the mind is utterly and completely still, and that stillness is not made up, put together; that stillness arises only when there is understanding; and this understanding is not difficult, only it demands your whole attention. Attention is denied when you are merely living in the brain, and not with your whole being.
All texts copyright © Krishnamurti Foundation of America and/or Krishnamurti Foundation Trust Lt
I would like to propose this for talking about this questions i have, and if you and all agree, more than reading Krishnamurti, it is more about our own "thinking" :)
Anyway, i share here the text i used to extract some ideas of Krishnamurti for my questions,https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/content/art-listening-seeing-learning-and-living.
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I ask these questions knowing that it is my conditioning that is speaking. In our group we use language to communicate, to me, our 'understanding' of Krishnamurti's lectures or talks. So I have a few comments I'd like to make, so maybe we can discuss our "intent," if any, when we set up the meetings.
- Krishnamurti said: The speaker says, 'For god's sake let's think together... But you say, 'Sorry I want my opinions... ...I like my opinions, I cannot let go my experiences, my pleasures.' … So our minds, not your mind is different from mine... ...there is only one mind when we are together - you understand this?
- He also said: to think together does not imply … agreement or disagreement, but putting aside one’s own particular point of view,; particular conclusions; vanity, personal demands, seek of something….. then arises the desire to fulfil, and inevitable sequence of that is frustration with all its neurosis and all the inevitable reactions.
- My question is:: do we need to -agree on what means- “Let's think together” for our meetings?
- He also said:….and having the capacity thus to think together… requires a effort, needs verbal communication, .. The word ‘together’ means walking together,.. not translating what you observed in your own particular inclination or prejudice,.. but observing together, listening together, walking together.
- My second question is: If we need verbal communication, but it is a "trap" of the conditioned mind, then is personal work on Krishnamurti's "teachings" better than "talking" among ourselves about it?
- Krishamurti identifies some problems: fear, search of pleasure (with its innumerable forms), and so on
- My last question is: -If our mind or conditioning can identify -with or through- thought the problems (the ones mentioned above), the identification we make of our own problems is not a starting point, a "signal", a "tool" to try to solve. "notice". ” the “circle of our mind”? That is, if I identify a problem related to fear, and there are thoughts and actions that lead me there, the identification of those patterns, without the change or the repression, but only the identification, yes in my conditioned mind, can be a point starting point or tool for the correct action?
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Best regards
Laura :)
Søndag 23.april kl.10
When you are a light to yourself you are a light to the world
Se denne video, som jeg finder uhyre interessant, så tager vi dialogen derfra.
Med venlig hilsen
Michael M. Sorribes
The plan is to start with an introduction as a preliminary enquiry into Krishnamurti's understanding of consciousness based to the three quotations below:
Your consciousness is my consciousness. The content of your consciousness is my content. You are caught in the stream of consciousness with its content. As long as you are flowing in that current of consciousness, it will go on, and you will be like the rest of the world. To totally step out of that consciousness is what is demanded, not just to conform and follow the flow of bourgeois life or the life of conflict and misery. If you like that kind of life, it will go on. But it is not your life, it is the life of everybody, your neighbour, your sister or brother, your husband or wife, your ministers, because they are all ambitious, greedy, corrupt, frightened, and they will go on. For the one who totally steps out of that current, there is freedom of death.
Jiddu krishnamurti, Public Talk 3 in New Delhi, 18 November 1972
Our brain is the result of time, evolution. Our brain is not your brain and my brain, but the brain of mankind. This is difficult for you to see, and even recognize, because we have been so conditioned that it is my brain. And it is your brain. But if you observe, human beings right throughout the world go through enormous turmoil, poverty, anxiety, insecurity, confusion, psychologically wounded, fear, fear of being hurt, physically, fear of psychological hurts, fear of death, and the enquiry, what is there beyond…
That is the content of our consciousness. And as long as there’s that content, which is always divisive, which is always fragmented, our action must be fragmented. Right?
So the problem then is: is it possible for the content of that consciousness to be dissolved?
Jiddu krishnamurti, 2nd Public Talk in Ojai, May 1980
Now is it possible to observe our consciousness, not at two broken levels, but totally? You understand my question? Can I observe my consciousness, not as the unconscious and the conscious but as a total unit, not divided, but a thing that is intrinsically whole? Right? Is it possible to so observe? You understand my question? It is only possible when I understand very clearly that this division is artificial, perhaps convenient and perhaps it might explain certain neurotic activities, but actually it is totally brought about by man, by thought.
Jiddu krishnamurti, Public Talk 6 Saanen, Switzerland - 20 July 1978
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Med venlig hilsen/best regards
Peter
Now, will that religious man, who is discovering from moment to moment, be occupied with social reform? Or will he remain outside of society and help the individual who is caught in its ceaseless struggle? Surely, the truly religious man is outside of society because for him there is no authority. He is not seeking a result; therefore, results happen in spite of him, and such a man is not concerned with social reform.
"The individual is the little conditioned, miserable, frustrated entity, satisfied with his little gods and his little traditions, whereas a human being is concerned with the total welfare, the total misery and total confusion of the world."
“We human beings are what we have been for millions of years — colossally greedy, envious, aggressive, jealous, anxious and despairing, with occasional flashes of joy and affection. We are a strange mixture of hate, fear and gentleness; we are both violence and peace. There has been outward progress from the bullock cart to the jet plane but psychologically the individual has not changed at all, and the structure of society throughout the world has been created by individuals. The outward social structure is the result of the inward psychological structure of our human relationships, for the individual is the result of the total experience, knowledge and conduct of man.”
“What is crucial to bringing peace to the world is your daily behavior.”
"It is the happy man, not the idealist or the miserable escapee, who is revolutionary; and the happy man is not he who has many possessions. The happy man is the truly religious man, and his very living is social work. But if you become merely one of the innumerable social workers, your heart will be empty. You may give away your money, or persuade other people to contribute theirs, and you may bring about marvellous reforms; but as long as your heart is empty and your mind full of theories, your life will be dull, weary, without joy. So, first understand yourself, and out of that self-knowledge will come action of the right kind.”
Har du nogensinde spekuleret over hvad roden til frygt er?
"Hvad er roden til frygt, det er det vi spørger om, ikke en særlig frygt men roden til al frygt. Roden til frygt er tid: hvad jeg vil være, hvad jeg har været, hvad jeg måske ikke er. Tid er fortid, nutid og fremtid. Fortiden modificerer sig selv i nutiden og fortsætter i fremtiden. Frygt er frygten for at noget ubehageligt der skete sidste uge eller sidste år, psykisk eller fysisk, vil gentage sig eller fortsætte i fremtiden. Så tid er en frygtfaktor. Den fattige som frygter ikke at kunne finde det næste måltid. I kender ikke til alt det. Frygten for ikke at have et hjem, et husly, mad. Og så er der effekten af frygt, både på den fysiske organisme, og på det psykologiske, på psyken; og selve psyken består måske af frygt. Vær venlig at forstå det.
Psyken, det du er, kan være et resultat af frygt. Og sandsynligvis er den det. Så det er vigtigt at forstå dybden og betydningen af frygt. Og det er tid og tanke. Tid som fremtid, jeg kan dø, jeg kan miste, jeg kan være ikke-noget, jeg er noget nu - hvilket jeg tvivler på -men jeg vil gerne være noget i fremtiden, og så videre Så tid og tanke er roden til frygt. Og derfor må man stille et meget mere seriøst spørgsmål: om tiden og tanken har et stop."
J. Krishnamurti Tale 2, New York, 1983.
søndag 26. marts kl. 10.00
Frihed fra det kendte
- klik på ovenstående link for at deltage i dialogen
“Contradiction arises only when the mind has a fixed point of desire; that is when the mind does not regard all desire as moving, transient, but seizes upon one desire and makes that into a permanency – only then, when other desires arise, is there contradiction. Quietness of mind is essential to understand the whole significance of life.”
So long as thought, which is the product of the past, tries to eliminate contradiction and all the problems that it creates, it is merely pursuing a result, trying to achieve an end, and such thinking only creates more contradiction and hence conflict, misery and confusion in us and, therefore, about us.
“To be free of contradiction, one must be aware of the present without choice. To be fully aware of the present is an extraordinarily difficult task because the mind is incapable of facing a fact directly without deception.”
“Thus, so long as there is a pattern of thought, contradiction will continue; to put an end to the pattern, and so to contradiction, there must be self-knowledge. If we can be aware of every thought, of every feeling, from moment to moment, then we shall see that in relationship the ways of the self are understood. Then only is there a possibility of that tranquillity of mind in which alone the ultimate reality can come into being.
Mvh
Jonas
søndag 19. marts kl. 10.00
Vi tager udgangspunkt i nedenstående tekst
- klik på ovenstående link for at deltage.
Hej Henrik - her er en forkortet udgave af de udvalgte quotes … 😁🤔
Malibu 1970
To live in the present is one of the most complex things. It is not just away from the past; you have to understand the whole nature of the past, which is you …
... What prevents us from seeing the whole movement of this? - my attachments, my prejudices, my beliefs, my experience, my desires, contradictory, conflict, misery, confusion - you follow? - the whole of that ...
… So are you using thought to see the whole? And you know at the same time thought is a fragmentary affair, so through the fragment you hope to see the whole - is that it? So you don’t realise actually that thought is a fragment. By putting many fragments together, which thought does, which it calls integration, and hoping thereby to see the whole, it can't. So do we realise that thought cannot see the whole?...
… Are you aware, if I may ask that question most politely, without any disrespect, are you aware that you are conditioned? Are you? Totally conditioned, not partially conditioned. Your words condition you - right? - education conditions you, culture conditions you, the environment conditions you, propaganda of two thousand years or five thousand years of priests have conditioned you. So you are conditioned right through. When you say, ‘I believe in god', that is part of your conditioning - like the man who says, 'I don't believe in god'.
So do we realise that this is a fact: a total conditioning? Then when you realise it what takes place? Do you then say, 'I must uncondition it'? You follow? Then who is the 'I' - and that 'I' is part of your conditioning. So what do you do?
… thought is a fragment, therefore it is limited. It is fragmentary because it is based on knowledge, experience and memory, which is the movement of time. Right? So thought, whatever is caught in the movement of time, is limited. That’s obvious .... And we think through thought we will see the totality. That is our difficulty. We don't say, thought cannot see the totality, therefore thought becomes quiet.
… As we said the other day, when you look at a map you see the totality of the whole map - right? - various countries, the colours, the hills, see the totality. But if you have a direction you don’t see the totality. That is, if you want to go from here to Vienna you have the line, you see that, and you disregard the rest … as long as you have a direction, a motive, a purpose, then you cannot see the totality.
SUMMARY:
CONDITIONING =THOUGHT = FRAGMENT = TIME = ME
2023 Mürren International Gathering
around the work of
J. KRISHNAMURTI
Saturday 24 June – Saturday 8 July
Please note earlier dates, necessary to keep costs down
Mürren (alt. 1650m), above Lauterbrunnen Valley
near Interlaken, Switzerland
Mürren is a car-free mountain village with beautiful walks
overlooking the Eiger, Mönch and Jungfrau
The gathering takes place at hotel Sportchalet
Join for one or two weeks
If you require a shorter stay, please book other accomodation in Mürren
You will still share all activities and meals in Sportchalet
Information: Claire Dufour – claratolo@gmail.com
Themes and full programme available beginning of 2023
“The important thing is to discover, and after discovering, to keep going.”
ACTIVITIES
Viewing and reflecting on selected talks of J. Krishnamurti
Questioning and participating in dialogues
Gentle exercises proposed by participants
Hiking in beautiful mountains
Free time
An atmosphere of friendliness, seriousness and silence
contributes to the quality of inquiry.
There is no authority and no goal to reach.
CHF 600* per person per week, with shared bathrooms on each floor
Full board (light lunch). Free entrance to the SportCentre swimming pool
* Plus CHF 100 per week for the overall organisation, due also from those staying elsewhere
~ Please book with Claire by end-March 2023 ~
Check ch.ch (5 languages) for requirements on entering Switzerland
We recommend you have a European Health Insurance Card or travel insurance
Mürren or Mürren BLM stations can be reached by cableway and train only
For schedules, go to sbb.ch (4 languages)
Sportchalet Mürren is a few minutes’ walk between the two stations
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“When you are free of fear there is the strong feeling of being good, of thinking very clearly, of looking at stars, of looking at clouds, of looking at faces with a smile. And when there is no fear, you can go much further. Then you can find out for yourself that for which man has searched generation upon generation.”
Part One `On Education'
“To go into this question of fear one has to be aware, that is, one has to watch one's own fear, not the fear that one is told about or the fear of the unknown, but the actual fear that one has. Fear does not exist by itself; it is not an isolated factor, it exists in relation to something.“
1968 Rome 1st Public Talk 10th March 1968"Analysis is merely a description of what is, and we are not analysing but just observing. It is very important to understand this, the art of looking, the art of seeing. We are seeing fear, listening to fear, to all its murmurs, not theoretically but actually. If we could see fear with eyes that are very clear then fear would completely come to an end. And that's what we are doing."
Rome 1st Public Talk 10th March 1968"Can the mind see the totality of fear and not merely the different forms of fear? Now how is it possible to see the totality of fear as well as these different aspects of it - the central structure and nature of fear and also its fragmentation, such as the fear of the dark, the fear of walking alone, the fear of the wife or the husband, or losing the job? If I could understand the central nature of fear then I should be able to examine all the details, but if I merely look at the details then I shall never come to the central issue.
Saanen 1st Public Talk 9th July 1967"When one discards, or puts an end to, or stops, time, then there is only the fact of fear - therefore there is no escape from fear, there is no controlling, there is no sublimating - it is so. When that is a fact, then it undergoes a tremendous change. That is, when there is no longer the observer - the entity that says, `I am afraid', `I' being separate from the fear - then, is there fear at all?"
1st Public Talk Paris 16th April 1967
Torsdag 2. marts kl. 19.00
Video og dialog: Krishnamurti Komitéen c/o Thorsgade 85, 1.tv
Krishnamurti: With a silent mind
Denne dokumentar er baseret på interviews med folk der havde været i kontakt med Krishnamurti. Vi ser den første halve time eller sådan og snakker om den.
Kh. Henrik
Knowing ourselves implies self-observation at every moment of the day, in our relationships, in our speech, in our actions, in our gestures; it implies being fully aware of ourselves.
- Krishnamurti
Most of us know very little about ourselves at the greater depths of consciousness.
- Krishnamurti
Søndag 19. februar kl.10.00
Dialogen tager afsæt i nedenstående video
Søndag 12. februar kl.10.00
Dialogen tager afsæt i nedenstående video
Description
Thought is responsible for our confusion | J. Krishnamurti
Extract from Public Talk 4, Madras, India, 1981
Mvh Peter
“All thinking is a reaction, a response of memory. Thought can never bring about freedom because freedom is not a response or a result. Freedom is not the rejection of the things we know or the things that give us pain or the attachment to something which gives us pleasure and to which we have become slaves. The whole structure of our consciousness, of our thought, is the residue, the reservoir of reactions. Revolution and revolt are essentially reactions”
From Public Talk 3 in Saanen, 11 July 1963
Søndag 5. februar kl.10.00
Dialogen tager afsæt i disse 2 korte videoer
Søndag 29. januar kl.10.00
Dialogen tager udgangspunkt i nedenstående tekst
Den globale udfordring kalder på en ny bevidsthed
Fra forordet til Krishnamurti-bogen Facing A World In Crisis.
af Henrik Petersen
Vi er alle i samme båd
Hvor tit hæver vi egentlig blikket fra vores eget og dagligdagens mange gøremål, og ser bredt på hvad der faktisk foregår i verden og hvordan vi forholder os dertil? På flere planer lever mange af os i en meget lille verden, i en meget lille bevidsthed, hovedsalig optaget af vores eget, men den store verden, den globale bevidsthed banker på..
Vi bliver i dag, mere end nogensinde, konfronteret med hvad der sker i verden. Den globale tv-dækning og internettet betyder at vi kan følge enhver naturkatastrofe, ethvert terrorangreb, enhver krig, enhver krise og demonstration, ethvert topmøde, enhver celeber begivenhed og enhver større sportsbegivenhed live.
Denne konstante nyhedsstrøm udgør sammen med vores egen dagligdag og personlige erfaring vores bevidsthed om verden. Selv om nyhedsstrømmen ofte er tendiøs, sensationsorienteret og svælger i død og ødelæggelse, så fortæller den om hvad der faktisk sker, den afspejler mere eller mindre præcist verdenssituationen. Vi ser at naturkatastrofer, uroligheder og uansvarlighed et sted kan have konsekvenser jorden rundt. Vi ser at alle vores krige, udover at handle om territorier og ressourcer, også handler om religion, etnicitet og nationalitet. Vi er handelsmæssigt og økonomisk bundet sammen på kryds og tværs, og vi flytter os som aldrig før og overalt fører det til kultursammenstød. I disse kultursammenstød kender vi grundlæggende ikke til andet end at forfægte vores egen tradition, vores egne værdier, og selvom vi indimellem taler om tolerance ved vi godt det ikke er løsningen, for tolerancen er en fernis, en tynd overflade. Vi ser også at menneskets umådelige foretagsomhed har fatale konsekvenser for alt andet liv; overalt forsvinder dyre- og plantearter i hastigt tempo, og det synes ikke at betyde noget for de fleste af os. Vores foretagsomhed er så omfattende at det har sat gang i klimaændringer, som i sidste ende truer vores egen eksistens.
Alt dette kalder på en ny bevidsthed. Den gamle bevidsthed som er lokal, traditionsbunden, religiøst og ideologisk fikseret, kan ikke tage den nuværende udfordring op. En meget begrænset bevidsthed kan ikke tage en umådelig udfordring op. Spørgsmålet er om der kan opstå en ny menneskelig bevidsthed, om vi kan vække en ny ansvarlighed, en ny følelse af slægtskab og samhørighed med alt levende, for vi kan ikke løse vores problemer med en selvisk bevidsthed - kan vi?
Krishnamurti begynder ofte en tale med at invitere os til sammen med ham at iagttage verdenssituationen. Han beskriver den nøgternt og pointerer, at vi ikke kan melde os ud af verden, at det ikke hjælper at vende ryggen til hvad der foregår i verden, og at det er illusorisk at tro at vi ikke har noget med al volden, alle konflikterne, alle ødelæggelserne i verden at gøre. Vi er nødt til at se og føle og forstå, at vi alle er i samme båd.
Nyt sind & ny verden
Du er verden og verden er dig, siger Krishnamurti igen og igen. Intellektuelt giver vi måske udsagnet en chance, men forstår og føler vi det sådan? Hvad er det der forhindrer os i at indse og føle at vi alle lever på samme jord, og at det er vores alle sammens jord? Er det propaganda, tusinder års propaganda som siger at vi, altså et eller andet ekskluderende vi, har mere ret til jorden end andre? Er det den konstante eksponering og dyrkelse af personer, individualitet, som vi ser overalt? Hvis udsagnet om, at jeg er verden og verden er mig, er sandt på et helt grundlæggende plan følger, at det kun er hvis jeg forandrer mig at verden forandrer sig, og at vi hver især derfor har et ansvar der går langt ud over os selv. Så er du verden, føler du det – eller føler du dig anderledes? Og lige meget hvad svaret er – hvad er så virkelighed og hvad er illusion?
Meget taler altså for, at det kun er et nyt sind, ikke et nyt system, en ny tro, eller en ny forestilling, som kan skabe en ny verden. Hvad forhindrer så dette nye sind i at opstå? Det er disse forhindringer Krishnamurti hele tiden udforsker, og han siger at det kun er når vi lader det gamle sind fare, og har en indsigt i dets væsen og natur, at vi bliver i stand til at agere intelligent i forhold til den politiske, økonomiske, miljømæssige, religiøse og personlige verdenssituation.
Noget af det der kendetegner det gamle sind og forhindrer et nyt sind i at blive til, er vores autoritetstro. Vi vil så gerne have hurtige og nemme svar på alverdens problemer, og derfor søger vi altid efter en ny leder, et nyt system, et nyt program vi kan tro på. Viden og autoritet har sin plads, anerkender Krishnamurti, men det får hjernen til at svinde ind, når vi ved at tro på autoriteter i livets grundliggende spørgsmål, lægger ansvaret fra os. Vi må derfor se på hvilken rolle autoritet spiller i vores liv, hvilken rolle den spiller i forhold til følelsen af tryghed, i forhold til magt og i vores forhold til hinanden.
Vi lever på mange måder et anden-hånds-liv, vi bliver underholdt, vi bliver belært af eksperter på alle områder, vi uddannes og får værktøjer til at klare enhver situation, vi lever stort set adskilt fra naturen, og mad og oplevelser er noget vi køber. Vi er forbrugere og alt er så gennemtygget at mange må gå til ekstremerne for at føle de er i live. Det Krishnamurti giver os er noget helt andet, han giver os hverken forklaringer eller teorier, men udsagn som kan kick-starte vores egne observationer og som skal efterprøves i vores eget liv – han giver os livet tilbage, vil jeg sige. For livet er noget vi hver især må udforske – det er større end nogen guru eller nogen lære, som Krishnamurti engang har sagt.
Udfordringen er enorm
En anden ting Krishnamurti i næsten enhver tale påpeger er, at de billeder vi har af hinanden ødelægger vores forhold til hinanden. Alle disse forestillinger om os og dem, mig der er bedre eller værre end dig, manden der er vigtigere end kvinden og så videre, og så videre, alle disse attituder er farlige og falske.
Krishnamurti advarer også konstant mod rent intellektuelt bare at være enig eller uenig med hvad han siger; vi er nødt til selv at gå bag ordene og finde frem til sandheden, for som han formulerer det – ordet er ikke tingen, beskrivelsen er ikke det beskrevne.
Nogle gange blev han mødt af protester som gik på at han forlangte for meget af den enkelte: ”Vi er jo bare almindelige mennesker” som én engang sagde. Krishnamurti svarede, ”vi kan ikke længere tillade os bare at være almindelige mennesker… udfordringen er for enorm.”
Til de som ikke er bekendt med The teachings skal siges, at når han taler om forvandling og om et helt nyt sind som en forudsætning for at kunne skabe en anden verden, så indbyder han ikke til at tænke eller bevidst arbejde på at blive noget andet end det vi er; tanken er ikke redskabet, og målet ligger ikke ude i fremtiden; det er derimod hele tanken om, hele bestræbelsen på at blive noget psykologisk set han sætter spørgsmålstegn ved, for den største forhindring i forhold til at forstå os selv og derfor verden, er vores konstante optagethed af at være eller blive noget, siger han. Krishnamurti afviser med andre ord idealer og tid som midler til at forandre verden. Han beder os i stedet om, at blive ved og meget nøje iagttage det, som er; og i sådan en fuldkommen ubetinget og ikke-afstandtagende iagttagelse forvandles det, som er.
Krishnamurti inviterer os altså til altid at møde livets problemer og udfordringer som var det første gang, og give alt hvad vi har i os til dette møde. Vores problem eller udfordring er både global og personlig – der er ingen forskel.
Teksten som audio (med billeder)
Søndag 15. januar kl.10.00
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“Psychologically we have created walls around ourselves, walls of resistance, walls of hope, fear, greed, envy, ambition, desire for position, power, prestige. They are created by the thinker. The thinker has created the space around himself in which he lives, and there he is never free. Beauty is not only the thing that you see; that’s a very small part. Beauty is not the result of thought, is not put together by thought. Like love, thought has no place where affection is. Where there is jealousy, envy, greed, ambition, and pride—love is not. We all know that. But, to find out what it means to love, there must surely be freedom from all travail, all jealousy, all envy. Then we will know.
In the same way, to be free implies no psychological walls created by the center. Freedom means space. Freedom also implies an end to time, not abstractly but actually. Freedom means to live completely today because we have understood the whole structure, the nature, and the meaning of the past. The past is the conscious as well as the unconscious. We have understood the whole of that. Because of that understanding, there is the active present, which is living. Can this actually happen in our daily life?”
J. Krishnamurti
Talk 5, Paris, 1966