Krishnamurti-dialoger på Skype 


Folk der er interesseret i at udforske sig selv og lytte til hvad Krishnamurti har at sige er velkomne til at deltage. Tryk på linket. Næste dialog er søndag 11. juni kl. 10.00




Der er ikke noget sådant som min lære; du skal ikke forstå læren; du skal forstå dig selv. Hele formålet med læren er at få dig til at indse hvor vigtigt det er at forstå dig selv .


 J.Krishnamurti



Søndag 11. juni kl.10

Åben dialog - en samtale om det der ligger os på sinde lige nu.



Søndag 4. juni kl.10

Vi ser en af de to korte videoer inden Dialogen


Noget om egoet, selvet, jeget og miget.

The source or origin of disorder is the self-centred, egotistic attitude towards the world - me first and you second, our colossal selfishness.

Public Talk 1 in New York, 20 April 1974


Passion means the complete abandonment of the ‘me’, of the self, the ego.

from Dialogue 9 with Allan W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 22 February 1974


To find out whether the brain can operate completely, wholly, all the senses must operate at the same moment, at the same level, with the same intensity. Then you will find with the total movement of all the senses, there is no centre. It is only when partial sensory responses take place that there is a centre. That is the beginning of the ego, the ‘me’, the self

Public Talk 2 in New Delhi, 1 November 1981

Hej Henrik - et meget relevant quote for søndag's dialog (hilsen Michael Henriques)



There is learning of the movement of the self only when there is a conflict. When you are happy, you are not watching anything; you are just happy. It is only in unhappiness that you become aware of yourself. Pain, distress, guilt, agony, tears, ambition, fear, all that, are an indication of self-consciousness. If you discover that, you have solved a great deal. Self-consciousness is the source of all conflict. To end conflict, can the mind be free from this mechanism of self-centred images? Me first and my ambition, my knowledge, my way of thinking, my furniture, my house, the me that is afraid of my loneliness, the me that says, ‘I am not loved, I must be loved,’ ‘I must fulfil’ – all that is self-consciousness, and all that breeds fear and conflict. So realising that, the mind doesn’t enter into that field at all.

From Discussion with Young People, Malibu, 14 April 1970



We talked about continuing the dialogue about 'choiceless awareness'. Here are some quotes to use as a starting point.


Look at the content of your consciousness without direction, without choice. Be aware of it without any exertion of discernment. Be choicelessly aware of this extraordinary map. Then that choiceless awareness gives you tremendous energy to go beyond it.
From Dialogue 14 with Allan W. Anderson in San Diego, California, 26 February 1974


When the mind perceives its content, becomes choicelessly aware of the content of consciousness and ends it totally, that is, transforms itself completely, dies to everything that it has cultivated or held on to, then there is an incarnation now and a new change now.
Public Talk 3 in New York, 27 April 1974

To understand sorrow, there must be the understanding of time and thought, and becoming choicelessly aware of all the escapes, the self-restrained self-pity, all the verbalisations, so that the mind, in understanding all this, becomes completely quiet in front of something it has to understand. There is no division between the observer and the thing observed. It is not you as the observer looking at sorrow or feeling sorrow; there is only the state of sorrow, not you in sorrow.
From Public Talk 8, Saanen, 28 July 1964


Rasmus



Søndag 21. maj kl.10

Vi ser hver for sig nedenstående foredrag for så at tale om hvad vi finder interessant


The Challenge of Choiceless Awareness
David Moody

(klik på linket, så kommer du til videoen.)

What does it mean to live in truth and actuality? 


Nordic Retreat At the Krishnamurti Centre, Brockwood Park England

From Thursday 4th May to Monday 8th May 2023


Dialogerne vil være på engelsk, men mange deltagere vil være fra et af de nordiske lande.

Booking:

The Krishnamurti Centre • Study the Teachings of J. Krishnamurti



 the folder for our programme.


Everything that thought has put together is reality, the actual. The temple is the actual – you go there – the church is the actual, the mosque, and so on – all those are put together by thought. But nature, the tree, the mountains, rivers, are not put together by thought. But the chair, made out of the wood, is put together by thought. And all the illusions, the superstitions are actual, therefore put together by thought. So everything that thought has put together – tradition, the rituals, the technological knowledge, the whole apparatus of the movement of thought, which has created this world, this confusion, is a reality. And reality has nothing whatsoever to do with truth. You understand, sirs, this is really a very important, rather serious question, because we all talk about seeking truth, experiments in truth, searching for truth.


What is the relationship between reality and truth? Reality, which is the movement of thought, can it invite truth or can it perceive truth? Obviously thought is fragmentary, thought is limited, thought is a material process in time. So thought cannot possibly invite truth. It is only a mind that is holistic – we explained what we mean by the word ‘holistic’, a mind that is sane, which means rational, objective, non-personal, that can see what exactly is, and a healthy body, naturally, and a mind that is holy – that is holistic – it’s is only a holistic mind that can see what truth is. Not, thought can see what truth is.


Both extracts from J. Krishnamurti - Fourth Public Talk in Bombay - 16 January 197


Extract on Dialogue

To communicate with one another, even if we know each other very well, is extremely difficult. I may use words that may have to you a significance different from mine. Understanding comes when we, you and I, meet on the same level at the same time. That happens only when there is real affection between people, between husband and wife, between friends. That is real communion. Instantaneous understanding comes when we meet on the same level at the same time. It is very difficult to commune with one another easily, effectively and with definitive action. I am using words which are simple, which are not technical, because I do not think that any technical type of expression is going to help us solve our difficult problems; so I am not going to use any technical terms, either of psychology or of science. I have not read any books on psychology or any religious books, fortunately. I would like to convey, by the very simple words which we use in our daily life, a deeper significance; but that is very difficult if you do not know how to listen. There is an art of listening. To be able really to listen, one should abandon or put aside all prejudices, preformulations and daily activities. When you are in a receptive state of mind, things can be easily understood; you are listening when your real attention is given to something. But unfortunately most of us listen through a screen of resistance. We are screened with prejudices, whether religious or spiritual, psychological or scientific; or with our daily worries, desires and fears. And with these for a screen, we listen. Therefore we listen really to our own noise, to our own sound, not to what is being said. It is extremely difficult to put aside our training, our prejudices, our inclination, our resistance, and, reaching beyond the verbal expression, to listen so that we understand instantaneously. That is going to be one of our difficulties. If anything is said which is opposed to your way of thinking and belief just listen; do not resist. You may be right, and I may be wrong; but by listening and considering together we are going to find out what is the truth. Truth cannot be given to you by somebody. You have to discover it; and to discover, there must be a state of mind in which there is direct perception. There is no direct perception when there is a resistance, a safeguard, a protection. Understanding comes through being aware of what is. To know exactly what is, the real, the actual, without interpreting it, without condemning or justifying it, is the beginning of wisdom. It is only when we begin to interpret, to translate according to our conditioning, according to our prejudice, that we miss the truth. After all, it is like research. To know what something is, what it is exactly, requires research – you cannot translate it according to your moods. Similarly, if we can look, observe, listen, be aware of what is, exactly, then the problem is solved. And that is what we are going to do in these discourses. I am going to point out to you what is, and not translate it according to my fancy; nor should you translate it or interpret it according to your background or training.


From The First and Last Freedom, Chapter 1


On listening with ease

Have you ever sat very silently, not with your attention fixed on anything, not making an effort to concentrate, but with the mind very quiet, really still? Then you hear everything, don’t you? You hear the far off noises as well as those that are nearer and those that are very close by, the immediate sounds—which means really that you are listening to everything. Your mind is not confined to one narrow little channel. If you can listen in this way, listen with ease, without strain, you will find an extraordinary change taking place within you, a change which comes without your volition, without your asking; and in that change there is great beauty and depth of insight.


From The Book of Life


On communication and communion

There is, I think, a great deal of difference between communication and communion. In communication there is a sharing of ideas through words, pleasant or unpleasant, through symbols, through gestures; and ideas can be translated ideologically, or interpreted according to one's own peculiarities, idiosyncrasies and background. But in communion I think there is something quite different taking place. In communion there is no sharing or interpretation of ideas. You may or may not be communicating through words, but you are directly in relationship with that which you are observing; and you are communing with your own mind, with your own heart. One may commune with a tree, for example, or with a mountain, or a river. I do not know if you have ever sat beneath a tree and really tried to commune with it. It is not sentimentality, it is not emotionalism: you are directly in contact with the tree. There is an extraordinary intimacy of relationship. In such communion there must be silence, there must be a deep sense of quietness; your nerves, your body are at rest; the heart itself almost comes to a stop. There is no interpretation, there is no communication, no sharing. The tree is not you, nor are you identified with the tree: there is only this sense of intimacy in a great depth of silence. I do not know if you have ever tried it. Try it sometime - when your mind is not chattering, not wandering all over the place, when you are not soliloquizing, when you are not remembering the things that have been done or that must be done. Forgetting all that, just try communing with a mountain, with a stream, with a person, with a tree, with the very movement of life. That demands an astonishing sense of stillness, and a peculiar attention - not concentration, but an attention which comes with ease, with pleasure.


From 3rd Public Talk in Saanen, 1964


Daily Schedule

Thursday 4 May 2023

Afternoon Arrival

6.30PM Supper

8.00PM Introduction


Meeting Friday 5 May 2023

8.00AM Breakfast

9.30AM Audio: BRGS75CB1 - Brockwood Park and Gstaad 1975 - Dialogue 1 with David Bohm - What is truth and what is reality? (70 minutes)

11.30AM Dialogue 1

1.00PM Lunch

5.00PM Video extract: Truth cannot be experienced (7 minutes)) Dialogue 2

6.30PM Supper


Saturday 6 May 2023

8.00AM Breakfast

9.30AM  Video: BR83CB2 - Brockwood Park 1983 - Dialogue 2 with David Bohm - Is there evolution of consciousness? (66 minutes)

11.30AM Dialogue 3

1.00PM Lunch

5.00PM Meeting with Mark Edwards

6.30PM Supper


Sunday 7 May 2023

8.00AM Breakfast

9.30AM Video: BR76CTM7 - Brockwood Park 1976 - Small Group Dialogue 7 - Life is sacred? (57 minutes)

11.30AM Dialogue 4

1.00PM Lunch

5.00PM Video: OJBR80CB15 - Brockwood Park 1980 - Dialogue 15 with David Bohm - Can human problems be solved? (73 minutes)

6.30PM Supper


Monday 8 May 2023

8.00AM Breakfast

Departure


J Krishnamurti Extract from Talk 6, Poona, India 3 October 1948

Has truth an abiding place? Has truth a fixed point? Has truth an abode, or is truth a dynamic, living thing, and therefore without a resting place? Truth is in constant movement; but if you say it is a fixed point, then you will have to find a guru who will lead you to it, and the guru becomes necessary as a pointer. That means that both you and the guru must know that truth is there, in a fixed place, like the station. Then you can ask the way, then you can approach the fixed point; and in order to achieve that, you need a guru who will direct and lead you to that fixed thing. But is truth a fixed thing? And if it is fixed, is it true? Also, if you want truth and you go to a guru, you must know what truth is, must you not? When you go to a guru you do not say, `I want to discover reality', on the contrary, you say, `Help me to realize truth'. Therefore, you already have an idea of what it is, you already know its content, its beauty, its loveliness, its fragrance. Do you know what it is? How can a confused man know clarity? He can only know confusion, or think of clarity as the opposite of what is. Is truth the opposite of what is, the opposite of confusion? If you think about truth, surely it is the product of thought, and therefore it is not true; and if the guru can tell you what it is, then he is still within the field of thought, therefore what he tells you is not true. So, when you go to the guru, obviously you are going for gratification, are you not? - even though you may not like that word. You have tried several things, you have tried position, women, money, and they do not satisfy you, they do not give an assured pleasure, a guaranteed permanency; so you say, `I will find God'. That is, you think reality will give you the ultimate peace, the ultimate satisfaction, the ultimate security. You would like truth to be all this; but it may be the most dangerous, devastating thing, it may destroy all your previous values. You are really seeking security, gratification, but you do not call it that - you cover it up by calling it God. Having tried many obvious forms of gratification and grown old, disillusioned, cynical, frustrated, you hope to find fulfilment or satisfaction in God. So, you go to the guru who will give you this satisfaction, and the more he assures you of that satisfaction, the more you worship him. In other words, when you go to the guru, you are not seeking the truth, you are seeking security at a different level, permanency at a different point. But is truth permanency? You do not know, do you? But you dare not say that, because to acknowledge, not merely verbally but actually, that one does not know, is a very devastating experience. But surely, you must be devastated before you can find truth; you must be in that state of uncertainty, complete frustration, without escape; you must be confronted with the void, the emptiness, without an avenue through which you can run away. Then only you will find what is truth. But to speculate, to think about truth, is to deny truth. Your speculations, your thoughts about truth, have no validity: What you think is the product of thought, and thought is memory; and memory is mere identification of oneself with a desired result. So, for the man who is seeking truth, a guru is entirely unnecessary. Truth is not in the distance; truth is near, in what you are thinking and feeling, in your relationship with your family, with your neighbour, with your property and with ideas. To discover truth in some abstract realm is mere ideation, and most of us seek truth this way as a means of escape from life. Life is too much for us, too taxing, too painful, so we want truth away from life Therefore we seek a guru who will help us to escape; and the more he helps us to escape, the more we are attached to that guru. 8 The questioner asks me, `Are you not yourself a guru?' You can make me one, but I am not a guru. I do not want to be one for the simple reason that there is no path to truth. You cannot discover the path, because there is no path, Truth is a thing that is living, and to a living thing there is no path - it is only, to dead things that there can be a path. Truth being pathless, to discover it you must be adventurous, ready for danger; and do you think a guru will help you to be adventurous, to live in danger? To seek a guru obviously indicates that you are not adventurous, that you are merely seeking a path to reality as a means of security. So, you can make me into a guru if you wish, but it will be your misery, because there is no guru to truth, there is no leader to reality. That reality is an eternal being in the present, not in the future; it is in the immediate now, not in the ultimate tomorrow. To understand that now, that eternity, the mind must be free from time, thought must cease; yet everything that you are doing now is cultivating that thought, thereby conditioning the mind so that there is never a freshness, a newness, there is never a moment that is still, quiet, as long as the thought process exists, truth cannot be - which does not mean that you must be in a state of complete forgetfulness. You cannot enforce stillness, you cannot make the mind still, you cannot force thought to stop. You must understand the process of thought and go beyond all thought; only then will truth liberate thought from its own process. So, truth is not for those who are respectable, nor for those who desire self-extension, selffulfilment. Truth is not for those who are seeking security, permanency; for the permanency they seek is merely the opposite of impermanence. Being caught in the net of time, they seek that which is permanent; but the permanent they seek is not the real, because what they seek is the product of their thought. Therefore, a man who would discover reality must cease to seek - which does not mean that he must be contented with what is. On the contrary, a man who is intent upon the discovery of truth must be inwardly a complete revolutionary. He cannot belong to any class, to any nation, to any group or ideology, to any organized religion; for truth is not in the temple or the church, truth is not to be found in the things made by the hand or by the mind. Truth comes into being only when the things of the mind and of the hand are put aside, and that putting aside of the things of the mind and of the hand is not a matter of time. Truth comes to him who is free of time, who is not using time as a means of self-extension. Time means memory of yesterday, memory of your family, of your race, of your particular character, of the accumulation of your experience which makes up the `me' and the `mine'. As long as the ego exists, the `me' and the `mine', at whatever level it may be, high or low, the Atman or not Atman, it is still within the field of thought. Where thought is, there is the opposite, because thought creates the opposite; and as long as the opposite exists, there cannot be truth. To understand what is, there must be no condemning, no justifying, no blaming; and since our whole structure of being is built upon denial and acceptance, one must become aware of that whole background, Just be aware as I am speaking; for choiceless awareness reveals the truth, and it is the truth that liberates, not your gurus or your systems, not all the pujas and rituals and practices. Through time, through discipline, through denial and acceptance, you cannot find truth, Truth comes into being when the mind is utterly and completely still, and that stillness is not made up, put together; that stillness arises only when there is understanding; and this understanding is not difficult, only it demands your whole attention. Attention is denied when you are merely living in the brain, and not with your whole being.


All texts copyright © Krishnamurti Foundation of America and/or Krishnamurti Foundation Trust Lt



Søndag 30.april kl.10

Vi tager udgangspunkt i nedenstående

I would like to propose this for talking about this questions i have, and if you and all agree, more than reading Krishnamurti, it is more about our own "thinking" :)


Anyway, i share here the text i used to extract some ideas of Krishnamurti for my questions,https://www.jkrishnamurti.org/content/art-listening-seeing-learning-and-living.


--------


I ask these questions knowing that it is my conditioning that is speaking. In our group we use language to communicate, to me, our 'understanding' of Krishnamurti's lectures or talks. So I have a few comments I'd like to make, so maybe we can discuss our "intent," if any, when we set up the meetings.

- Krishnamurti said: The speaker says, 'For god's sake let's think together... But you say, 'Sorry I want my opinions... ...I like my opinions, I cannot let go my experiences, my pleasures.' … So our minds, not your mind is different from mine... ...there is only one mind when we are together - you understand this?
- He also said: to think together does not imply … agreement or disagreement, but putting aside one’s own particular point of view,; particular conclusions; vanity, personal demands, seek of something….. then arises the desire to fulfil, and inevitable sequence of that is frustration with all its neurosis and all the inevitable reactions.
- My question is:: do we need to -agree on what means- “Let's think together” for our meetings?

- He also said:….and having the capacity thus to think together… requires a effort, needs verbal communication, .. The word ‘together’ means walking together,.. not translating what you observed in your own particular inclination or prejudice,.. but observing together, listening together, walking together.
- My second question is: If we need verbal communication, but it is a "trap" of the conditioned mind, then is personal work on Krishnamurti's "teachings" better than "talking" among ourselves about it?

- Krishamurti identifies some problems: fear, search of pleasure (with its innumerable forms), and so on
- My last question is: -If our mind or conditioning can identify -with or through- thought the problems (the ones mentioned above), the identification we make of our own problems is not a starting point, a "signal", a "tool" to try to solve. "notice". ” the “circle of our mind”? That is, if I identify a problem related to fear, and there are thoughts and actions that lead me there, the identification of those patterns, without the change or the repression, but only the identification, yes in my conditioned mind, can be a point starting point or tool for the correct action?



----


Best regards


Laura :)




Søndag 23.april kl.10

When you are a light to yourself you are a light to the world


Se denne video, som jeg finder uhyre interessant, så tager vi dialogen derfra.


Med venlig hilsen

Michael M. Sorribes



Søndag 16.april kl.10

What Is Consciousness?




The plan is to start with an introduction as a preliminary enquiry into Krishnamurti's understanding of consciousness based to the three quotations below:



Your consciousness is my consciousness. The content of your consciousness is my content. You are caught in the stream of consciousness with its content. As long as you are flowing in that current of consciousness, it will go on, and you will be like the rest of the world. To totally step out of that consciousness is what is demanded, not just to conform and follow the flow of bourgeois life or the life of conflict and misery. If you like that kind of life, it will go on. But it is not your life, it is the life of everybody, your neighbour, your sister or brother, your husband or wife, your ministers, because they are all ambitious, greedy, corrupt, frightened, and they will go on. For the one who totally steps out of that current, there is freedom of death.


Jiddu krishnamurti, Public Talk 3 in New Delhi, 18 November 1972




Our brain is the result of time, evolution. Our brain is not your brain and my brain, but the brain of mankind. This is difficult for you to see, and even recognize, because we have been so conditioned that it is my brain. And it is your brain. But if you observe, human beings right throughout the world go through enormous turmoil, poverty, anxiety, insecurity, confusion, psychologically wounded, fear, fear of being hurt, physically, fear of psychological hurts, fear of death, and the enquiry, what is there beyond…


That is the content of our consciousness. And as long as there’s that content, which is always divisive, which is always fragmented, our action must be fragmented. Right?

So the problem then is: is it possible for the content of that consciousness to be dissolved?


Jiddu krishnamurti, 2nd Public Talk in Ojai, May 1980




Now is it possible to observe our consciousness, not at two broken levels, but totally? You understand my question? Can I observe my consciousness, not as the unconscious and the conscious but as a total unit, not divided, but a thing that is intrinsically whole? Right? Is it possible to so observe? You understand my question? It is only possible when I understand very clearly that this division is artificial, perhaps convenient and perhaps it might explain certain neurotic activities, but actually it is totally brought about by man, by thought.


Jiddu krishnamurti, Public Talk 6 Saanen, Switzerland - 20 July 1978



--

Med venlig hilsen/best regards

Peter



Søndag 9.april kl.10

Dialog om samfundsforandringer med udgangspunkt i nedenstående citater



Now, will that religious man, who is discovering from moment to moment, be occupied with social reform? Or will he remain outside of society and help the individual who is caught in its ceaseless struggle? Surely, the truly religious man is outside of society because for him there is no authority. He is not seeking a result; therefore, results happen in spite of him, and such a man is not concerned with social reform.

"The individual is the little conditioned, miserable, frustrated entity, satisfied with his little gods and his little traditions, whereas a human being is concerned with the total welfare, the total misery and total confusion of the world."



“We human beings are what we have been for millions of years — colossally greedy, envious, aggressive, jealous, anxious and despairing, with occasional flashes of joy and affection. We are a strange mixture of hate, fear and gentleness; we are both violence and peace. There has been outward progress from the bullock cart to the jet plane but psychologically the individual has not changed at all, and the structure of society throughout the world has been created by individuals. The outward social structure is the result of the inward psychological structure of our human relationships, for the individual is the result of the total experience, knowledge and conduct of man.”


“What is crucial to bringing peace to the world is your daily behavior.”


"It is the happy man, not the idealist or the miserable escapee, who is revolutionary; and the happy man is not he who has many possessions. The happy man is the truly religious man, and his very living is social work. But if you become merely one of the innumerable social workers, your heart will be empty. You may give away your money, or persuade other people to contribute theirs, and you may bring about marvellous reforms; but as long as your heart is empty and your mind full of theories, your life will be dull, weary, without joy. So, first understand yourself, and out of that self-knowledge will come action of the right kind.


Søndag 2.april kl.10

Roden til frygt

Dialog med udgangspunkt i videoen The Root of Fear.



Har du nogensinde spekuleret over hvad roden til frygt er?

"Hvad er roden til frygt, det er det vi spørger om, ikke en særlig frygt men roden til al frygt. Roden til frygt er tid: hvad jeg vil være, hvad jeg har været, hvad jeg måske ikke er. Tid er fortid, nutid og fremtid. Fortiden modificerer sig selv i nutiden og fortsætter i fremtiden. Frygt er frygten for at noget ubehageligt der skete sidste uge eller sidste år, psykisk eller fysisk, vil gentage sig eller fortsætte i fremtiden. Så tid er en frygtfaktor. Den fattige som frygter ikke at kunne finde det næste måltid. I kender ikke til alt det. Frygten for ikke at have et hjem, et husly, mad. Og så er der effekten af frygt, både på den fysiske organisme, og på det psykologiske, på psyken; og selve psyken består måske af frygt. Vær venlig at forstå det.

Psyken, det du er, kan være et resultat af frygt. Og sandsynligvis er den det. Så det er vigtigt at forstå dybden og betydningen af frygt. Og det er tid og tanke. Tid som fremtid, jeg kan dø, jeg kan miste, jeg kan være ikke-noget, jeg er noget nu - hvilket jeg tvivler på -men jeg vil gerne være noget i fremtiden, og så videre Så tid og tanke er roden til frygt. Og derfor må man stille et meget mere seriøst spørgsmål: om tiden og tanken har et stop."

J. Krishnamurti Tale 2, New York, 1983.


søndag 26. marts kl. 10.00 


Frihed fra det kendte

- klik på ovenstående link for at deltage i dialogen


From Public Talk 7, Madras, 13 December 1961


When there is the complete ending of everything one has known, then only, being free from the known, can you enter into the unknown. You don’t have to enter; it comes to you. Your mind then, being free of the known, understands the unknowable.



 “Contradiction arises only when the mind has a fixed point of desire; that is when the mind does not regard all desire as moving, transient, but seizes upon one desire and makes that into a permanency – only then, when other desires arise, is there contradiction. Quietness of mind is essential to understand the whole significance of life.”


So long as thought, which is the product of the past, tries to eliminate contradiction and all the problems that it creates, it is merely pursuing a result, trying to achieve an end, and such thinking only creates more contradiction and hence conflict, misery and confusion in us and, therefore, about us.


“To be free of contradiction, one must be aware of the present without choice. To be fully aware of the present is an extraordinarily difficult task because the mind is incapable of facing a fact directly without deception.”

“Thus, so long as there is a pattern of thought, contradiction will continue; to put an end to the pattern, and so to contradiction, there must be self-knowledge. If we can be aware of every thought, of every feeling, from moment to moment, then we shall see that in relationship the ways of the self are understood. Then only is there a possibility of that tranquillity of mind in which alone the ultimate reality can come into being.


Mvh 

Jonas 


The Immeasurable Podcast:What Is Dialogue? | Part 1


søndag 19. marts kl. 10.00 

Vi tager udgangspunkt i nedenstående tekst

- klik på ovenstående link for at deltage.


Hej Henrik - her er en forkortet udgave af de udvalgte quotes … 😁🤔



Malibu 1970



To live in the present is one of the most complex things. It is not just away from the past; you have to understand the whole nature of the past, which is you … 


...  What prevents us from seeing the whole movement of this? - my attachments, my prejudices, my beliefs, my experience, my desires, contradictory, conflict, misery, confusion - you follow? - the whole of that ...


… So are you using thought to see the whole? And you know at the same time thought is a fragmentary affair, so through the fragment you hope to see the whole - is that it? So you don’t realise actually that thought is a fragment. By putting many fragments together, which thought does, which it calls integration, and hoping thereby to see the whole, it can't. So do we realise that thought cannot see the whole?...


… Are you aware, if I may ask that question most politely, without any disrespect, are you aware that you are conditioned? Are you? Totally conditioned, not partially conditioned. Your words condition you - right? - education conditions you, culture conditions you, the environment conditions you, propaganda of two thousand years or five thousand years of priests have conditioned you. So you are conditioned right through. When you say, ‘I believe in god', that is part of your conditioning - like the man who says, 'I don't believe in god'.

So do we realise that this is a fact: a total conditioning? Then when you realise it what takes place? Do you then say, 'I must uncondition it'? You follow? Then who is the 'I' - and that 'I' is part of your conditioning. So what do you do? 


…  thought is a fragment, therefore it is limited. It is fragmentary because it is based on knowledge, experience and memory, which is the movement of time. Right? So thought, whatever is caught in the movement of time,  is limited. That’s obvious .... And we think through thought we will see the totality. That is our difficulty. We don't say, thought cannot see the totality, therefore thought becomes quiet. 


…  As we said the other day, when you look at a map you see the totality of the whole map - right? - various countries, the colours, the hills, see the totality. But if you have a direction you don’t see the totality. That is, if you want to go from here to Vienna you have the line, you see that, and you disregard the rest … as long as you have a direction, a motive, a purpose, then you cannot see the totality.



SUMMARY:


CONDITIONING =THOUGHT = FRAGMENT = TIME = ME



2023 Mürren International Gathering

around the work of

J. KRISHNAMURTI

 

Saturday 24 June – Saturday 8 July

 

Please note earlier dates, necessary to keep costs down

 

Mürren (alt. 1650m), above Lauterbrunnen Valley

near Interlaken, Switzerland

Mürren is a car-free mountain village with beautiful walks

overlooking the Eiger, Mönch and Jungfrau

 

The gathering takes place at hotel Sportchalet

Join for one or two weeks

If you require a shorter stay, please book other accomodation in Mürren

You will still share all activities and meals in Sportchalet

 

Information:  Claire Dufour  –  claratolo@gmail.com

Themes and full programme available beginning of 2023

 

 

 

“The important thing is to discover, and after discovering, to keep going.”

 

 

 

 

ACTIVITIES

Viewing and reflecting on selected talks of J. Krishnamurti

Questioning and participating in dialogues

Gentle exercises proposed by participants

Hiking in beautiful mountains

Free time

 

An atmosphere of friendliness, seriousness and silence

contributes to the quality of inquiry.

There is no authority and no goal to reach.

 

CHF 600* per person per week, with shared bathrooms on each floor

Full board (light lunch). Free entrance to the SportCentre swimming pool

* Plus CHF 100 per week for the overall organisation, due also from those staying elsewhere

 

~ Please book with Claire by end-March 2023 ~

 

 

Check ch.ch (5 languages) for requirements on entering Switzerland

We recommend you have a European Health Insurance Card or travel insurance

Mürren or Mürren BLM stations can be reached by cableway and train only

For schedules, go to sbb.ch (4 languages)

Sportchalet Mürren is a few minutes’ walk between the two stations

søndag 12. marts kl. 10.00 

Om at iagttage frygt

- klik på ovenstående link for at deltage.


  • “When you are free of fear there is the strong feeling of being good, of thinking very clearly, of looking at stars, of looking at clouds, of looking at faces with a smile. And when there is no fear, you can go much further. Then you can find out for yourself that for which man has searched generation upon generation.”
    Part One `On Education'

    “To go into this question of fear one has to be aware, that is, one has to watch one's own fear, not the fear that one is told about or the fear of the unknown, but the actual fear that one has. Fear does not exist by itself; it is not an isolated factor, it exists in relation to something.“
    1968 Rome 1st Public Talk 10th March 1968


     "Analysis is merely a description of what is, and we are not analysing but just observing. It is very important to understand this, the art of looking, the art of seeing. We are seeing fear, listening to fear, to all its murmurs, not theoretically but actually. If we could see fear with eyes that are very clear then fear would completely come to an end. And that's what we are doing." 
    Rome 1st Public Talk 10th March 1968


     "Can the mind see the totality of fear and not merely the different forms of fear? Now how is it possible to see the totality of fear as well as these different aspects of it - the central structure and nature of fear and also its fragmentation, such as the fear of the dark, the fear of walking alone, the fear of the wife or the husband, or losing the job? If I could understand the central nature of fear then I should be able to examine all the details, but if I merely look at the details then I shall never come to the central issue.
    Saanen 1st Public Talk 9th July 1967


    "When one discards, or puts an end to, or stops, time, then there is only the fact of fear - therefore there is no escape from fear, there is no controlling, there is no sublimating - it is so. When that is a fact, then it undergoes a tremendous change. That is, when there is no longer the observer - the entity that says, `I am afraid', `I' being separate from the fear - then, is there fear at all?"
    1st Public Talk Paris 16th April 1967

Torsdag 2. marts kl. 19.00 

Video og dialog: Krishnamurti Komitéen c/o Thorsgade 85, 1.tv

Krishnamurti: With a silent mind


Denne dokumentar er baseret på interviews med folk der havde været i kontakt med Krishnamurti. Vi ser den første halve time eller sådan og snakker om den.

Kh. Henrik

Søndag 26. februar kl.10.00

Dialogen tager afsæt i nedenstående tekst. (klik på linket)

Mvh Peter


Knowing ourselves implies self-observation at every moment of the day, in our relationships, in our speech, in our actions, in our gestures; it implies being fully aware of ourselves.

  • Krishnamurti


Most of us know very little about ourselves at the greater depths of consciousness.

  • Krishnamurti 


Søndag 19. februar kl.10.00

Dialogen tager afsæt i nedenstående video

Søndag 12. februar kl.10.00

Dialogen tager afsæt i nedenstående video

Description

Thought is responsible for our confusion | J. Krishnamurti

Extract from Public Talk 4, Madras, India, 1981


Mvh Peter


“All thinking is a reaction, a response of memory. Thought can never bring about freedom because freedom is not a response or a result. Freedom is not the rejection of the things we know or the things that give us pain or the attachment to something which gives us pleasure and to which we have become slaves. The whole structure of our consciousness, of our thought, is the residue, the reservoir of reactions. Revolution and revolt are essentially reactions”


From Public Talk 3 in Saanen, 11 July 1963

Søndag 5. februar kl.10.00

Dialogen tager afsæt i disse 2 korte videoer

Søndag 29. januar kl.10.00

Dialogen tager udgangspunkt i nedenstående tekst

Den globale udfordring kalder på en ny bevidsthed


Fra forordet til Krishnamurti-bogen Facing A World In Crisis.

af Henrik Petersen

Vi er alle i samme båd

Hvor tit hæver vi egentlig blikket fra vores eget og dagligdagens mange gøremål, og ser bredt på hvad der faktisk foregår i verden og hvordan vi forholder os dertil? På flere planer lever mange af os i en meget lille verden, i en meget lille bevidsthed, hovedsalig optaget af vores eget, men den store verden, den globale bevidsthed banker på..


Vi bliver i dag, mere end nogensinde, konfronteret med hvad der sker i verden. Den globale tv-dækning og internettet betyder at vi kan følge enhver naturkatastrofe, ethvert terrorangreb, enhver krig, enhver krise og demonstration, ethvert topmøde, enhver celeber begivenhed og enhver større sportsbegivenhed live.


Denne konstante nyhedsstrøm udgør sammen med vores egen dagligdag og personlige erfaring vores bevidsthed om verden. Selv om nyhedsstrømmen ofte er tendiøs, sensationsorienteret og svælger i død og ødelæggelse, så fortæller den om hvad der faktisk sker, den afspejler mere eller mindre præcist verdenssituationen. Vi ser at naturkatastrofer, uroligheder og uansvarlighed et sted kan have konsekvenser jorden rundt. Vi ser at alle vores krige, udover at handle om territorier og ressourcer, også handler om religion, etnicitet og nationalitet. Vi er handelsmæssigt og økonomisk bundet sammen på kryds og tværs, og vi flytter os som aldrig før og overalt fører det til kultursammenstød. I disse kultursammenstød kender vi grundlæggende ikke til andet end at forfægte vores egen tradition, vores egne værdier, og selvom vi indimellem taler om tolerance ved vi godt det ikke er løsningen, for tolerancen er en fernis, en tynd overflade. Vi ser også at menneskets umådelige foretagsomhed har fatale konsekvenser for alt andet liv; overalt forsvinder dyre- og plantearter i hastigt tempo, og det synes ikke at betyde noget for de fleste af os. Vores foretagsomhed er så omfattende at det har sat gang i klimaændringer, som i sidste ende truer vores egen eksistens.


Alt dette kalder på en ny bevidsthed. Den gamle bevidsthed som er lokal, traditionsbunden, religiøst og ideologisk fikseret, kan ikke tage den nuværende udfordring op. En meget begrænset bevidsthed kan ikke tage en umådelig udfordring op. Spørgsmålet er om der kan opstå en ny menneskelig bevidsthed, om vi kan vække en ny ansvarlighed, en ny følelse af slægtskab og samhørighed med alt levende, for vi kan ikke løse vores problemer med en selvisk bevidsthed - kan vi?


Krishnamurti begynder ofte en tale med at invitere os til sammen med ham at iagttage verdenssituationen. Han beskriver den nøgternt og pointerer, at vi ikke kan melde os ud af verden, at det ikke hjælper at vende ryggen til hvad der foregår i verden, og at det er illusorisk at tro at vi ikke har noget med al volden, alle konflikterne, alle ødelæggelserne i verden at gøre. Vi er nødt til at se og føle og forstå, at vi alle er i samme båd.


Nyt sind & ny verden

Du er verden og verden er dig, siger Krishnamurti igen og igen. Intellektuelt giver vi måske udsagnet en chance, men forstår og føler vi det sådan? Hvad er det der forhindrer os i at indse og føle at vi alle lever på samme jord, og at det er vores alle sammens jord? Er det propaganda, tusinder års propaganda som siger at vi, altså et eller andet ekskluderende vi, har mere ret til jorden end andre? Er det den konstante eksponering og dyrkelse af personer, individualitet, som vi ser overalt? Hvis udsagnet om, at jeg er verden og verden er mig, er sandt på et helt grundlæggende plan følger, at det kun er hvis jeg forandrer mig at verden forandrer sig, og at vi hver især derfor har et ansvar der går langt ud over os selv. Så er du verden, føler du det – eller føler du dig anderledes? Og lige meget hvad svaret er – hvad er så virkelighed og hvad er illusion?


Meget taler altså for, at det kun er et nyt sind, ikke et nyt system, en ny tro, eller en ny forestilling, som kan skabe en ny verden. Hvad forhindrer så dette nye sind i at opstå? Det er disse forhindringer Krishnamurti hele tiden udforsker, og han siger at det kun er når vi lader det gamle sind fare, og har en indsigt i dets væsen og natur, at vi bliver i stand til at agere intelligent i forhold til den politiske, økonomiske, miljømæssige, religiøse og personlige verdenssituation.


Noget af det der kendetegner det gamle sind og forhindrer et nyt sind i at blive til, er vores autoritetstro. Vi vil så gerne have hurtige og nemme svar på alverdens problemer, og derfor søger vi altid efter en ny leder, et nyt system, et nyt program vi kan tro på. Viden og autoritet har sin plads, anerkender Krishnamurti, men det får hjernen til at svinde ind, når vi ved at tro på autoriteter i livets grundliggende spørgsmål, lægger ansvaret fra os. Vi må derfor se på hvilken rolle autoritet spiller i vores liv, hvilken rolle den spiller i forhold til følelsen af tryghed, i forhold til magt og i vores forhold til hinanden.


Vi lever på mange måder et anden-hånds-liv, vi bliver underholdt, vi bliver belært af eksperter på alle områder, vi uddannes og får værktøjer til at klare enhver situation, vi lever stort set adskilt fra naturen, og mad og oplevelser er noget vi køber. Vi er forbrugere og alt er så gennemtygget at mange må gå til ekstremerne for at føle de er i live. Det Krishnamurti giver os er noget helt andet, han giver os hverken forklaringer eller teorier, men udsagn som kan kick-starte vores egne observationer og som skal efterprøves i vores eget liv – han giver os livet tilbage, vil jeg sige. For livet er noget vi hver især må udforske – det er større end nogen guru eller nogen lære, som Krishnamurti engang har sagt.


Udfordringen er enorm

En anden ting Krishnamurti i næsten enhver tale påpeger er, at de billeder vi har af hinanden ødelægger vores forhold til hinanden. Alle disse forestillinger om os og dem, mig der er bedre eller værre end dig, manden der er vigtigere end kvinden og så videre, og så videre, alle disse attituder er farlige og falske.


Krishnamurti advarer også konstant mod rent intellektuelt bare at være enig eller uenig med hvad han siger; vi er nødt til selv at gå bag ordene og finde frem til sandheden, for som han formulerer det – ordet er ikke tingen, beskrivelsen er ikke det beskrevne.


Nogle gange blev han mødt af protester som gik på at han forlangte for meget af den enkelte: ”Vi er jo bare almindelige mennesker” som én engang sagde. Krishnamurti svarede, ”vi kan ikke længere tillade os bare at være almindelige mennesker… udfordringen er for enorm.”


Til de som ikke er bekendt med The teachings skal siges, at når han taler om forvandling og om et helt nyt sind som en forudsætning for at kunne skabe en anden verden, så indbyder han ikke til at tænke eller bevidst arbejde på at blive noget andet end det vi er; tanken er ikke redskabet, og målet ligger ikke ude i fremtiden; det er derimod hele tanken om, hele bestræbelsen på at blive noget psykologisk set han sætter spørgsmålstegn ved, for den største forhindring i forhold til at forstå os selv og derfor verden, er vores konstante optagethed af at være eller blive noget, siger han. Krishnamurti afviser med andre ord idealer og tid som midler til at forandre verden. Han beder os i stedet om, at blive ved og meget nøje iagttage det, som er; og i sådan en fuldkommen ubetinget og ikke-afstandtagende iagttagelse forvandles det, som er.


Krishnamurti inviterer os altså til altid at møde livets problemer og udfordringer som var det første gang, og give alt hvad vi har i os til dette møde. Vores problem eller udfordring er både global og personlig – der er ingen forskel.


Teksten som audio (med billeder)

Søndag 15. januar kl.10.00

Dialogen tager udgangspunkt i nedenstående video


“Psychologically we have created walls around ourselves, walls of resistance, walls of hope, fear, greed, envy, ambition, desire for position, power, prestige. They are created by the thinker. The thinker has created the space around himself in which he lives, and there he is never free. Beauty is not only the thing that you see; that’s a very small part. Beauty is not the result of thought, is not put together by thought. Like love, thought has no place where affection is. Where there is jealousy, envy, greed, ambition, and pride—love is not. We all know that. But, to find out what it means to love, there must surely be freedom from all travail, all jealousy, all envy. Then we will know.

In the same way, to be free implies no psychological walls created by the center. Freedom means space. Freedom also implies an end to time, not abstractly but actually. Freedom means to live completely today because we have understood the whole structure, the nature, and the meaning of the past. The past is the conscious as well as the unconscious. We have understood the whole of that. Because of that understanding, there is the active present, which is living. Can this actually happen in our daily life?”

J. Krishnamurti
Talk 5, Paris, 1966